Interesting commentary by Ben Stein

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The following was written by Ben Stein and recited by him on CBS Sunday Morning Commentary.

My confession:

I am a Jew, and every single one of my ancestors was Jewish.  And it does not bother me even a little bit when people call those beautiful lit up, bejeweled trees, Christmas trees…  I don’t feel threatened.  I don’t feel discriminated against. That’s what they are:  Christmas trees.

It doesn’t bother me a bit when people say, ‘Merry Christmas’ to me.  I don’t think they are slighting me or getting ready to put me in a ghetto.  In fact, I kind of like it.  It shows that we are all brothers and sisters celebrating this happy time of year. It doesn’t bother me at all that there is a manger scene on display at a key intersection near my beach house in Malibu .  If people want a crèche, it’s just as fine with me as is the Menorah a few hundred yards away.

I don’t like getting pushed around for being a Jew, and I don’t think Christians like getting pushed around for being Christians.  I think people who believe in God are sick and tired of getting pushed around, period.  I have no idea where the concept came from that America is an explicitly atheist country.  I can’t find it in the Constitution and I don’t like it being shoved down my throat.

Or maybe I can put it another way: where did the idea come from that we should worship Nick and Jessica and we aren’t allowed to worship God as we understand Him?  I guess that’s a sign that I’m getting old, too.  But there are a lot of us who are wondering where Nick and Jessica came from and where the America we knew went to.

In light of the many jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different:  This is not intended to be a joke;  it’s not funny, it’s intended to get you thinking.

Billy Graham’s daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayson asked her ‘How could God let something like this happen?’ (regarding Katrina) Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response.  She said, ‘I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we’ve been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives.  And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out.  How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?’

In light of recent events… Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.  I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.  The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.  And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn’t spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock’s son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he’s talking about.  And we said OK.

Now we’re asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don’t know right from wrong, and why it doesn’t bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.  I think it has a great deal to do with ‘WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.’

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world’s going to hell.  Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.  Funny how you can send ‘jokes’ through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.  Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing yet?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you’re not sure what they believe, or what they will think of you for sending it.

Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit.  If not then just discard it… No one will know you did.  But, if you discard this thought process, don’t sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in. 

My Best Regards,  Honestly and respectfully, Ben Stein

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He’s a smart dude.

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There is no god and we dont need prayer or bullshit like that in our schools. Children do need discipline and structure but that doesnt mean religion or god.

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Counterpoint

I was raised Catholic, though I no longer align myself with that or any organized religion.  I guess you could call me an apathetic agnostic; I don’t know if there’s a god, and I frankly don’t care.

I agree with Mr. Stein when he laments society trying to take Christ out of Christmas.  It is, after all, his birthday, and if anyone chooses to celebrate Christmas, that is what they are celebrating.  I don’t feel insulted if someone says “Merry Christmas” to me, nor would I feel insulted if a Jew said “Happy Hanukkah” to me, or if a Muslim were to say “Īd mubārak” to me.  They’re just trying to be inclusive.

That said, common sense tells me that I shouldn’t say “Merry Christmas” to someone whom I know to be an observant Jew or Muslim, and does not like being greeted in such a way.  Common sense also tells me that it’s probably better not to say “Merry Christmas” to a Sikh wearing a turban and traditional Sikh clothing, as they may not appreciate the gesture.

In fact, common sense can tell us a lot of things.  Common sense tells us that we shouldn’t murder each other, because taking another human life is just wrong.  Common sense tells us that we shouldn’t steal things, because taking things that don’t belong to us is just wrong.  Common sense tells us that we should love our neighbour as ourselves, because it’s just the right thing to do.

We don’t need the Bible to tell us these things.  Common sense already does a pretty good job.

Look at Japan.  They have one of the lowest crime rates in the world, and they didn’t need a god or a church or a bible to make that happen.  In fact, most Japanese people claim to have no affiliation to any particular religion, and religion plays no part in their daily lives.  Yet, as a rule, they don’t kill each other or steal from each other, and they tend to love their neighbours.  Common sense did a pretty good job of that.

And while I may not feel insulted if a Jew said “Happy Hanukkah” to me or if a Muslim said “Īd mubārak” to me or if a Christian said “Merry Christmas” to me, I do feel very insulted when any of them tries to tell me that the calamities of the world today are a result of decisions not to pray.

Hurricane Katrina was caused by the energy released by the condensation of moisture in rising air, not by a lack of prayer.  The 9/11 attacks were caused by a terrorist group bent on striking fear into the heart of America, not a lack of prayer.  The Columbine shootings were caused by a misunderstood group of youths being constantly bullied and, as a result, developing an obsession with death and murder, not by a lack of prayer.

And speaking of schools and prayer, the purpose of schools is to teach children the skills required to survive in the world and society.  ALL children: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Shintoist, and yes, even Atheist.  Yet I seriously doubt that Billy Graham’s daughter was talking about all those groups when she so glibly said that we asked “God” to get out of our schools and “He”, being the “Gentleman” that “He” is said yes.

Just like Mr. Stein doesn’t like the idea of atheism being shoved down his throat, I don’t like the idea of a religion that I never chose to follow being shoved down my throat.  And I certainly don’t like the idea of it being shoved down my (future) children’s throats, either.  Nor would the Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, Shintoists, or Atheists like the idea of having it shoved down their children’s throats.  And though it is true that the Constitution doesn’t say that America is an explicitly Atheist country, it does clearly say that Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion. 

Which, by the way, is precisely why Madeleine Murray O’Hare fought so hard to keep prayer out of the schools.

If we want to ask ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don’t know right from wrong, and why it doesn’t bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves, perhaps we should look for the answer within ourselves, not the Bible.  Perhaps we should examine what we are teaching our children, both in and out of the schools, rather than just praying and hoping that a god does the job for us because we choose not to do it ourselves.

Or better yet, perhaps we should ask ourselves if our children really do have no conscience, if they really don’t know right from wrong, or if it really doesn’t bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, or themselves.  I think we might be very surprised at the answer.

And finally, if you want your children to learn to pray and to love God, send them to Church.  That’s what it’s there for.  Because, just as we are free to choose to celebrate Christmas, Hanukkah and Ramadan, and are free to practice Christianity, Judaism, Islam, or any religion we so desire, we are also free not to.  Which is why the government used common sense to keep prayer out of the schools.

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Many scholars believe that the reason Christmas is on December 25 is because there were still people who celebrated the winter solstice (which used to be celebrated on the 25th) and in an attempt to stamp it out, they created their own winter festival.

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‘JESUS’ PLEASE CHANGE YOUR NAME TO SOMETHING LESS OFFENSIVE TO YOU!

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[quote]In light of recent events… Terrorists attack, school shootings, etc.  I think it started when Madeleine Murray O’Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn’t want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.  Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school.  The Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself.  And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn’t spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock’s son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he’s talking about.  And we said OK.

Now we’re asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don’t know right from wrong, and why it doesn’t bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.[/quote]

Starts with some bad assumptions, that can be summed up as “Kids these days.  Things were much better in my day.  Get off my lawn!”  Well, that’s not true.  On all counts, whether you’re talking about crime or wars or whatever.  He’s just wrong.  Kids aren’t more violent or disrespectful now than they were before.  People have been saying this since Plato’s time.  Get over it already, when you get older, you look back with nostalgia, and filter out the bad shit. 

“What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?”  – Plato, 4th Century BCE

People killed themselves and strangers, didn’t know right from wrong, whatever, at every point in history.  It’s naive to draw some sort of conclusion that less religion = more violence or social decay.  If that were true, then the least religious nations would be more violent and have dysfunctional societies.  And the most religious nations would be less violent and have very functional societies.  Trouble is, the opposite is true.

You don’t need a Bible (or, more accurately, a particularly convenient ignoring of certain sections of the Bible) to tell you not to be violent.  In fact a lot of the Bible is filled with religious violence.  You don’t need superstition and voodoo to tell you to be nice to others. 

Especially if that superstition and voodoo constantly emphasizes that your belief in a particular brand of superstition is superior to other people’s belief in a different brand of superstition.  My God is the real God, not yours!  Get over it already.

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Ben Stein will say just about anything these days to get a little publicity. I don’t know what happened to the man but he USED to be interesting to listen to-now he just leaves me shaking my head.

If the analogy about Katrina and pushing God away truly has any merit, then how do you explain things like waves of the Black Plague wiping out such a huge percentage of Europe’s population back when the Catholic Church was at an all time high? Was God just having a few bad years and decided it wasn’t worth answering the millions of prayers sent his way in those troubling times??

Yeah, I call bullshit on this and everything else out there that’s trying to shame me or anyone else into feeling bad for not having religion.

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Ben Stein is Jewish and every single one of his ancestors is Jewish.
I hope he is not suggesting that the holocaust can be explained away by his ancestors lack of prayer.

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WOW!!!  Two minutes of my life wasted reading that.  WOW!!!  Who cares.

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For the record, not all of this was written by Ben Stein. 

urbanlegends.about.com/library/b … istmas.htm

I still have a problem with him, but the really stupid stuff was added by somebody else.

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LOL, well it’s certainly a different version in his own hand as that which was “modified” and distributed by email, etc.

While some of the themes may be the same, some of the context is a tad different.
And of course his pop culture references were all excised as they didn’t help put across the point from the folks that usurped his train of thought.

Wonderful warning that all that we see on the internet, isn’t always what was originally put there I guess…

It’s also interesting to note that the original post on the htmf forum neglected to mention that the post such as it is, was actually from over three years ago.

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[quote=“Saffron”]
Ben Stein will say just about anything these days to get a little publicity. I don’t know what happened to the man but he USED to be interesting to listen to-now he just leaves me shaking my head.[/quote]

Would you be saying that if his statement had been written from an atheist point of view?

[quote]
If the analogy about Katrina and pushing God away truly has any merit, then how do you explain things like waves of the Black Plague wiping out such a huge percentage of Europe’s population back when the Catholic Church was at an all time high? Was God just having a few bad years and decided it wasn’t worth answering the millions of prayers sent his way in those troubling times??[/quote]

It was actually a statement about 9/11–the context was changed to match a more recent event I guess.

Also, the Catholic Church might have been at ‘an all time high.’ In truth, the Black Plague occured at about the same time as the explosion of Protestantism across all of Europe–and Protestantism became popular because of the gross corruption within the Catholic Church.

As for why a terrible thing like the Black Plague might occur–any Priest, Rabbi, or Imam will tell you that it’s impossible to understand the actions of God.

[quote]
Yeah, I call bullshit on this and everything else out there that’s trying to shame me or anyone else into feeling bad for not having religion.[/quote]

Is that what it said? Did it say “because people don’t BELIEVE in God”? I read it much differently. What Stein seems to have been elluding to was the apparent erosion of values in our society.

As an Atheist–or perhaps an Agnost, I don’t know you–which of the Ten Commandments do you find unacceptable or unreasonable? What’s wrong with someone suggesting that everyone–even people without faith in God–should follow basic values such as those?

[quote=“DWhite”]Ben Stein is Jewish and every single one of his ancestors is Jewish.
Ben Stein is Jewish and every single one of his ancestors is Jewish.[/quote]

I think he probably said that to stop any people attacking his Jewishness, or lack thereof.

[quote=“Mig”]
You don’t need superstition and voodoo to tell you to be nice to others.

Especially if that superstition and voodoo constantly emphasizes that your belief in a particular brand of superstition is superior to other people’s belief in a different brand of superstition.  My God is the real God, not yours!  Get over it already.[/quote]

I’ve been going to church on a semi-regular basis for my whole life, and I’ve never heard anyone say “our God is the real God, not theirs!” We’re not competing in a stadium. For the most part, most religions co-exist just fine together.

I could easily say that atheists subscribe to the same notion of voodoo and superstition. God is not real! Jews, Christians, and and Muslims are wrong!

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Double post, my bad.

Yea, many Priests believe that too. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t really know what that has to do with Ben Stein’s article–I assume you’re just making the point that Christianity hasn’t been without it’s faults over the years–and that’s definitely right.

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Well, to tell you the truth, I was just responding to star dog commander’s “I agree with Mr. Stein when he laments society trying to take Christ out of Christmas.  It is, after all, his birthday, and if anyone chooses to celebrate Christmas, that is what they are celebrating.  I don’t feel insulted if someone says “Merry Christmas” to me, nor would I feel insulted if a Jew said “Happy Hanukkah” to me, or if a Muslim were to say “Īd mubārak” to me.  They’re just trying to be inclusive.” I was pointing out that it isn’t really Christ birthday.  I should have made that more clear.  When I celebrate Christmas, I am not celebrating the birth of Christ, I am spending time with family and love ones, and if someone wants to tell me that’s not what I am doing, well, have fun with that.

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You know, I posted a semi-witty comeback and then thought better of it. I enjoy life too much to waste breath arguing about religion with anybody!  :smiley:

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I am a bit confused, Eccentric.  I know you like to be contrary, but I have no idea if you are defending Ben Stein or the entire tone of the article. 

By commenting on Saffron’s criticism of the Katrina analogy, you appear to be saying that the Black Death may have been caused by the rise of Protestanism.  I don’t think you actually mean that but why else the comment.  (oh yeh contrariness)

Stein’s original statements may have been a lament on the erosion of values, but the rest of it was utter nonsense, and difficult to defend in any context.

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No, I’m certainly not defending the entire article. I’m glad you posted that it wasn’t all Ben Stein, because the second chunk isn’t very good.

Saffron decided to bring historic events into account, and I disagree with her version of the religious climate during that period. There are some that would not say that that time was an all time high for the Catholic church–and in keeping in the same tone as the article, they might very well argue that yes, the Black Plague was punishment against a seriously corrupt Catholic Church. I was trying to get her to think about it from the viewpoint of the article–I might be wasting my time.

I do not, however, agree that different world events are the Wrath of God. If there is a God, I think He or She is far less simple than that. I DO think, though, that terrible world events can and should be the catalyst for personal reflection.

Ahhhhhh, I see. Gotcha. It’s the date we’ve chosen to celebrate his birth, for better or worse, I guess. I’d honestly be very pleased if people came up to be and wished me Happy Holidays in whichever way is traditional to them. I dunno about other Christians, but when I say “Merry Christmas,” I’m not literally saying “Merry Christ’s Mass, Happy Jesus’ Birthday”–it’s just a general wish of good tidings and such.

Off that subject, I think lots of people seem to object to people trying to sell them religion–no one likes being told what to believe. I think, though, lots of people might confuse someone,  trying to get people to reflect on their values (like Ben Stein), and someone trying to sell Judaism, or Christianity, or Islam, or whatever.

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You might be wasting your time, and you might also be wrong.

I appreciate your clarification.  We probably agree more than not.

But rather than accept Saffron’s point that blaming natural disasters and the like on the corruptness of society is illogical, you decided to question her historical accuracy.  That is your contrariness showing through.

It is easy to say that any time period has a corrupt church. (Dare I say really easy)  But, the Protestant Reformation is usually dated from Martin Luther and King Henry, the early part of the 1500s.  While the roots of those opposed to the Church go back to the 1300s, they are usually attributed to the church’s response or lack of response to the Black Death not before. 

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Actually, opposition to the Catholic Church was something that happened not long after it was established.  See http://www.catholic.com/library/Great_Heresies.asp.
The group that jumped to my mind was the Cathars, who started in of southern France in the 11th century.  So violent was the Catholic church reaction to get rid of this heresy that when the Hugenots arose a few centuries later, people of southern France didn’t really join them because the Cathars massacres were still in the collective memory.

Also,  about Ben Stein: