Genesis

As mentioned in my comment on The Red Tent, I am going to start a thread which may die a slow painful death within the week or it might become a more complete word association.

My proposal: We start an on-line book club. First book is the first book of The Bible, Genesis.

A lot of people have said they want to read the Bible. I have read much of it. I even took a course on the New Testament through one of our churches. Despite my non-belief, which wasn’t shaken at all, I found the course fascinating.

I have read Genesis, but I have never discussed it with anyone. The Bible was/still is the most influential book in western civilization if not the world. On that basis alone it should be read and discussed.

I am coming into this as an atheist with no desire to ever change. I am also coming into this with the selfish agenda of learning from anyone else who has an opinion on any of the numerous stories found in Genesis. I know there are many of you who find the stories nonsense, nothing more than fairy tales. Others of you see The Bible as the total word of God. Many of you, like me, believe that The Bible can be enjoyed on a literary, mythological and philosophical level. Some of you have never read it. I hope all of you come along for the ride.

I will start with Chapters One and Two, the Creation story, but feel free to bounce around if a thought takes you there.

Every culture has a creation story, and if we have to believe one, this one is somewhat appealing.

Here, we could debate God’s existence, but I am not sure where that would take us. I do have some random questions though. Where did God come from? What was he doing/thinking/feeling before he started creating? Did this perfect being realize that his creation would not turn out to be quite as good as he thought at the time? Can God die? I pose the last question because he does create death for humans. Could he create it for himself? I know I am speaking as a lowly human, but I am pretty sure I do not want to live forever. Again, speaking as a lowly, unimaginative human, I cannot fathom a heaven where I would want to spend eternity either.

I’ve read The Bible from cover to cover three times, not to mention research I have done throughout my life. I particularly enjoyed reading the Cambridge Bible History series as history is what primarily interested me in reading The Bible. While I still enjoy reading the history, I’m also not a believer. I am, however, an agnostic rather than an atheist, as I find atheists are far too certain about the non-existence of God. :smile:

Soggy, I am guessing that the certainty of my atheism is no stronger than the certainty of your non-belief. Both of us have made conscious, thoughtful decisions to be non-believers. I choose to call myself an atheist because my certainty that there is no god is much stronger than my uncertainty that there might be one.

Chapter Three: Adam and Eve and the Fall

I have never been sure what to make of this story.

God tells Adam not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil “lest ye die”. The snake convinces Eve that the fruit looks yummy so she and Adam eat. Immediately they realize that they are naked and cover up. They hide, but when God confronts them, they admit that they ate, but in true blame shifting manner Adam blames Eve and Eve blames the snake. The snake is silent. (Couldn’t he blame God? What choices was the snake given for how to behave?)

God punishes them. Eve is to have desire for her husband (was that not there before?) but would have painful childbirth. Adam has to toil the earth. The snake loses whatever mobility he had before and will slither for the rest of time. And of course they will die.

So what we have here is an entertaining myth explaining death, painful childbirth, evil, work, and the consequence of disobedience.

However, if the story is to be believed and used as a basis for some philosophical belief system, I don’t like it.

God created these flawed people and then blames and punishes them for being flawed. An all-knowing God had to have realized that Adam and Eve (with this so-called free choice they have been given) would screw up so why the pretense?

What were Adam and Eve thinking before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. If they didn’t realize evil, then how would they know that disobedience was wrong?

What are we to make of a God who is supposed to be loving and forgiving, punishing, someone so harshly for their first offense. Sounds to me like God knew his world was flawed (God saw that it was not so good but kept it anyway) and found a way to shift the blame over to poor Eve.

And what are we to make of seeing their nakedness and being ashamed. Before they were naked and it didn’t matter. Now they know good and evil, and it matters? Was sex a part of the Garden of Eden or not? Where were future generations supposed to come from?

And isn’t knowledge of good and evil worth having. If we blindly move through life without knowing the consequences of our actions (good or bad) then are we actually living?

Death may have been a consequence of this story, but so was life.

You forgot the get out of jail free card: “The Lord works in mysterious ways.”

No contradiction you can point out, no logical argument, no proof matters when it comes to the bible, because true believers will always fall back on that statement.

The modern equivalent is the conspiracy theory, where any contradictory evidence or logic itself becomes evidence for the conspiracy. In those cases, the get out of jail free card is: “That’s what THEY want you to think.”

Chapter Four Cain and Abel

Another story I don’t get. Cain and Abel both give offerings to the Lord. The Lord shows respect for Abel’s burnt offering of an animal but he shows no respect for Cain’s offering of the fruits of the land. Why is that? Is this a myth showing the roots of the conflict between herders and farmers? Is God showing a bloodlust in his preference for the sacrifice of animals over fruits and vegetables?

Is God supposed to show favouritism. At Christmas if one kid gave me a tie and the other gave me tickets to Paris, I am sure my face might give away my preference in gift. But we are talking God here and the gifts were equal – the fruits of Cain’s and Abel’s labour.

Then Cain kills Abel presumably out of jealousy. Of course there is no way that this act can be justified; Cain should be angry at God not Abel. God makes Cain a wanderer but when Cain says he can’t bear the punishment and fears for his life, God gives him a mark that will protect him from people who may wish to do him harm.

Compared to Adam’s and Eve’s punishment for disobeying an order not to eat, Cain gets a pretty light sentence for murdering his brother. The old “eye for an eye” doesn’t apply here. I guess we have Biblical precedent for opposition to capital punishment.

In this story we also get the famous “Am I my brother’s keeper?” The question is asked rhetorically by Cain and to him the answer is no. Now I would suggest we are, but the Bible, at least here, remains silent.

Well at least the religious, the many different nationalities and just mankind on the whole can AGREE on what REALITY is. Uh oh, we can’t even do that. Well, perhaps that’s where we should start. :stuck_out_tongue:

I have found the Bible to be an interesting read , some areas I find just to much like Jewish Fairy Tales . What really gets me is when I am speaking to someone and they start shooting their mouth off about something and when I question them about life matters (reality)they point to the Bible. So many are just programmed and they are unable to speak for themselves so they go to the good book . I have met individuals who so called christians , married but swing and switch hit , they still try and cover up with the book of Jewish Fairy Tales.

I agree that this topic may well implode but nevertheless I commend the initiator’s – or should I say the creator’s – willingness to start the ball rolling.

Like many, I have been both intrigued and frustrated in my various attempts at reading Genesis and, for that matter, the rest of the Bible. Its irrationality and long-windedness make it a challenging read. But it’s the contradictions that impress me the most. For example, was Adam male or hermaphrodite? Was woman created twice? How many legs did the serpent originally have? Were the sons of God angels or just really big dudes that Bishop would have recruited in grade 8?

Indeed, I would argue that it’s the Bible’s self-contradictory nature that is the core of its success. Early Christian thinkers clearly realized this when they adduced the doctrine of the Trinity. This super-koan still has thousands of believers around the world enthusiastically clapping with one hand while scratching their heads in puzzlement with the other. In fact, it appears to me that any religion worth its salt must be based on a set of writings that in any other context would be dismissed as garbled nonsense. Try the Koran, the Book of Mormon or L. Ron Hubbard to see what I mean.

All of this would only be mildly amusing if it were not for the horrific consequences that have resulted from various groups insisting that their collection of nonsense reflects the real truth. The inhumanity, atrocity and violence that continue to stain our history together on this planet, in large part, flow from religious conflicts based on irrational, self-contradictory writings.

Genesis and other such works have given us a rich source of literary allusions and the very fact that we’re discussing a 3,000 year old book here and now attests to its longevity. But, any written work that is held out to be the basis for understanding the truth and at the same time fails the simplest of tests for internal coherence and rationality should be rejected as having any meaningful use at all.

The topic of irrationality is an interesting one. The world seems to have it’s fair share of irrational people. Is it fair to assume that that we have no use for them. Surely we can learn something , even if it is how to try and understand them through a different set of eyes.

The same could be said of the bible, if we look at in a more figurative sense on occasion.

The most intriguing part is when Noah gets drunk on his own supply:

In Genesis 9, Noah becomes a tiller of the land and the first thing he does is build a vineyard. That’s what I would do. From 9:20 to 9:26 (approximatley the amount of time it takes me to get drunk on my rye and ginger!), the Book of Genesis explains that Noah gets wasted while naked and passes out. His baby boy Ham sees his father, runs outside to tell his two older brothers, Shem and Japheth, who then return to cloth their father by walking backwards, never witnessing Dad’s pee-pee. When Noah awakes and finds out what’s gone on, he loses it. He blames Ham for his hangover screams at his wife, “You’re the reason my kids are ugly!” then curses Ham’s baby boy, Canaan, to a life of servitude.

The lesson? When Dad becomes a drunk, it’s best not to talk about it socially. If you do, Dad won’t take responsibility and will punish you some how, for “The sins of the fathers are visited on the children.” That’s a Bible principle. The punishment, though inflicted on Canaan, was appropriate to Ham since he reaped exactly as he had sown. He sinned as a son and was punished in his son.

Welp, off to the bar for another one. I’ll probably drink and drive after. Sorry son. Oh wait, God says that I don’t have to be sorry. Yippeeee.

Chapters Five to Eleven Noah

I appreciate Pierre’s encouragement. I will continue to post, but I am certainly interested in hearing other people’s perspectives on the stories. I also agree with Grey Hair. I don’t think the stories themselves are irrational. What I like about the Old Testament is that there are no perfect characters. Nobody comes across as the ideal role model – even God.

Chapter Five has the genealogy of Adam through to Noah so we can actually count how many years from creation to the flood which is a fun math exercise if you are up to it. e.g. Adam was 130 when Seth was born; Seth was 105 when Enos was born;…Lamech was 182 when Noah was born; and Noah was 600 at the time of the Flood.

I am not sure who the sons of god were that took to wive the daughters of men which resulted in a race of giants, but God was not pleased. In fact, he was so sorry that he made man that he decides to wipe them out. After the waters abate, he promises that he will never destroy the earth again – at least not by flooding it.

Like previous stories, I am not sure what to make of this.

God created this earth and its inhabitants and then saw it fail so he destroys it. I am sure Beethoven ripped up a music sheet or two and I guess Picasso kicked over an easel every once in a while, so it shouldn’t surprise us that God would want to destroy a flawed creation. I just feel that God is displeased at human behaviour not at his creation. If Steven Spielberg directs a bad movie he could lay all the blame at the feet of the actors, but I would think he should bear some of the responsibility.

Only speculative answers here, but what was Noah thinking while being battered about in the storm? Did he feel an obligation to rescue any of the drowning people? And when the waters abated, what devastation was evident? Were there thousands of humans and animals scattered about or did they just disappear? I am trying to imagine how I might feel if I were the sole survivor of a catastrophe of this magnitude.

And God’s promise to Noah that he would not destroy the world seems pretty hollow. Armageddon is promised in Revelations but I guess we won’t have to worry about flooding

What I love about the Bible are the side stories that are not commonly known. Huh might make his posts sound unreal, but his summary of Noah’s drunkenness is dead on.

We also learn of the tower of Babel where a group of people start building a tower to the Heavens. God doesn’t like this because this is “just the beginning of what they will do.” So he confuses them by giving them different languages and scatters them every which way.

I wonder what God thinks of our giant skyscrapers and our attempts to explore the universe today.

I’m just wondering where Noah put those two termites … ?

That’s funny “soggy” !! I am wondering what he did with the dinoaurs? Oh, I’m sorry, they have never been mentioned in the "good’ book, have they?

Google “Dinosaurs and the Bible” and you will get thousands of hits like this one:

missiontoamerica.org/genesis … bible.html

Just sayin’

[quote=“DWhite”]Chapters Five to Eleven Noah

I appreciate Pierre’s encouragement. I will continue to post, but I am certainly interested in hearing other people’s perspectives on the stories. I also agree with Grey Hair. I don’t think the stories themselves are irrational. What I like about the Old Testament is that there are no perfect characters. Nobody comes across as the ideal role model – even God.

Chapter Five has the genealogy of Adam through to Noah so we can actually count how many years from creation to the flood which is a fun math exercise if you are up to it. e.g. Adam was 130 when Seth was born; Seth was 105 when Enos was born;…Lamech was 182 when Noah was born; and Noah was 600 at the time of the Flood.

I am not sure who the sons of god were that took to wive the daughters of men which resulted in a race of giants, but God was not pleased. In fact, he was so sorry that he made man that he decides to wipe them out. After the waters abate, he promises that he will never destroy the earth again – at least not by flooding it.

Like previous stories, I am not sure what to make of this.

God created this earth and its inhabitants and then saw it fail so he destroys it. I am sure Beethoven ripped up a music sheet or two and I guess Picasso kicked over an easel every once in a while, so it shouldn’t surprise us that God would want to destroy a flawed creation. I just feel that God is displeased at human behaviour not at his creation. If Steven Spielberg directs a bad movie he could lay all the blame at the feet of the actors, but I would think he should bear some of the responsibility.

Only speculative answers here, but what was Noah thinking while being battered about in the storm? Did he feel an obligation to rescue any of the drowning people? And when the waters abated, what devastation was evident? Were there thousands of humans and animals scattered about or did they just disappear? I am trying to imagine how I might feel if I were the sole survivor of a catastrophe of this magnitude.

And God’s promise to Noah that he would not destroy the world seems pretty hollow. Armageddon is promised in Revelations but I guess we won’t have to worry about flooding

What I love about the Bible are the side stories that are not commonly known. Huh might make his posts sound unreal, but his summary of Noah’s drunkenness is dead on.

We also learn of the tower of Babel where a group of people start building a tower to the Heavens. God doesn’t like this because this is “just the beginning of what they will do.” So he confuses them by giving them different languages and scatters them every which way.

I wonder what God thinks of our giant skyscrapers and our attempts to explore the universe today.[/quote]

I have no idea why God would be choked about skyscrapers and universal exploration. If I was God, I would just shrug my shoulders and say, “meh, I’ve done better.”

In fact, if I was God I’d buy myself a fantastic new car… better yet, I’ll just build one… wait a second, I won’t need a car because I am God. Wait a minute – is God an environmentalist?

The story of Cain and Abel is even more interesting. Cain is another land tiller, while Abel herds sheep. Cain produces products that you cannot command, while Abel is all about command and killing. So, when Cain brings God his produce as a sacrifice, God says, “Corn and beats? Meh, I’ve done better.” When Abel brings his sacrifice, God says “whoa. That’s pretty awesome. I could really go for some lamb chops right about now.” Cain gets choked, asks his brother to join him in his corn field.

Cain: Abel, we’ve been brother since you were born right?"

Abel: I guess, why?

Cain: “Oh nothing… (sounds of repeateed stabbing, then shovelling, then burying). That’ll teach you to show me up in front of the G-O-D.”

When God finds out about this little murderous escapade, he summons Cain and asks, “Uh, where is your brother?”

Cain: “What? Am I his babysitter? Couldn’t Mom and Dad tell you more.”

God: Well, uh, yeah, but tell me, why is your corn crop bleeding."

Cain: Oh that? It always does that at this time of year."

God: “Really? Because I swear to…”

Cain: “To God right? Hahaha, because you’re God, so like who are you going to swear to.”

God: “Huh? What? No… what I mean is, I think you killed your little brother.”

Cain: “What!!! You think… I… I can’t believe you – YOU – of all people… there are no words. Well, if that’s what you think then I guess I’ll just leave this field here. Maybe when Mom and Dad are done eating forbidden fruit they can get around to doing some house chores around here. Me, I’m outta here. I think I’m gonna walk the land for thousands of years. I don’t need this crap. You know if you hate me, I hope someone kills me. Then me and you can really get to know each other in ‘Heaven’.”

God: Oh you’d like that you snivelling little bastard. You know what, if someone does kill you then I’ll kill that guy seven times harder. And to make sure everyone knows what a dufus you are … uh here (sound of God hand slapping down on Abel’s forehead) that goes there. Now you have a really ugly tatty that no one will appreciate. Well excpet that other dufus who dumped Sandra Bullock for that tattoo whore. Yeah, you are a tattoo whore Cain. That’s what I think of you."

Cain: “Uh, what are you talking about?”

I guess what I’m trying to get at is that Abel is the first martyr and Cain is the first human incarnate of the devil. We learn that murder, for some reason, is wrong. But Cain was never formally punished in an “eye for an eye” kind of way. In fact his punishment was much worse, being cast as a lonely bastard for thousands of years with an ugly tattoo on his forehead.

It kind of makes you think that all those Texan murderers who’ve died at the Electric Chair were actually not being punished at all. Putting them down is almost letting them off the hook, according to Genesis. And in Texas God is, well, right up there with Emmit Smith and Nolan Ryan. So the question to those who support capital punishment is “If God wouldn’t do it, why should slackjaws in cowboy hats do it?”

Insisting that the stories in Genesis are not irrational, the leader of our motley crew suggests that it may be a fun exercise to use Genesis 5 to calculate the time interval between creation and the flood. After all, it’s perfectly rational for a whole dynasty of old patriarchs to behave like Viagra-crazed Energizer bunnies and keep on begetting well into their second centuries.

Notwithstanding the improbable but impressive geriatric fertility involved, this dating method was actually used as a starting point, some 350 years ago, by the infamous Bishop Ussher. He confidently asserted that 1,656 years had passed between these two imaginary, non-events. More specifically, he declared that God had begun our planet’s creation during the early morning hours of Sunday October 23, 4004 B.C.

For several hundred years, Ussher’s chronology was actually included as a factual appendix in thousands of Bibles in use around the world misleading generation after generation of true believers. Timelines displaying the bishop’s chronology are still exhibited in many fundamentalist school classrooms. It’s also rather disconcerting that at least one member of Stephen Harper’s cabinet still takes Bishop Ussher at his word. No doubt, a bill that would change Canada’s Labour Day to October 23 is in the works, after all, we’re a Christian, God-fearing nation, aren’t we?

[quote=“Pierre”]Insisting that the stories in Genesis are not irrational, the leader of our motley crew suggests that it may be a fun exercise to use Genesis 5 to calculate the time interval between creation and the flood. After all, it’s perfectly rational for a whole dynasty of old patriarchs to behave like Viagra-crazed Energizer bunnies and keep on begetting well into their second centuries.

Notwithstanding the improbable but impressive geriatric fertility involved, this dating method was actually used as a starting point, some 350 years ago, by the infamous Bishop Ussher. He confidently asserted that 1,656 years had passed between these two imaginary, non-events. More specifically, he declared that God had begun our planet’s creation during the early morning hours of Sunday October 23, 4004 B.C.

For several hundred years, Ussher’s chronology was actually included as a factual appendix in thousands of Bibles in use around the world misleading generation after generation of true believers. Timelines displaying the bishop’s chronology are still exhibited in many fundamentalist school classrooms. It’s also rather disconcerting that at least one member of Stephen Harper’s cabinet still takes Bishop Ussher at his word. No doubt, a bill that would change Canada’s Labour Day to October 23 is in the works, after all, we’re a Christian, God-fearing nation, aren’t we?[/quote]

Just to clarify. I don’t believe the stories in the Bible are irrational, just like I don’t believe Greek myths, Shakespeare’s plays or Harry Potter are irrational. A story is a story and can be enjoyed and criticized on many levels. However, believing that all the events in a story occurred as presented and are not just the imaginings of a clever storyteller is irrational.

I also don’t blame Bishop Ussher. He took a document and used it to piece together a timeline that made perfect sense, given the knowledge of the 17th Century. The fact that many people still believe that timeline is, as you say, disconcerting.

The rest of Genesis deals with Abraham, his son Isaac, his grandsons Esau and Jacob and his great grandson Joseph and their families. There is some historical information here that is probably accurate to some degree e.g. battles, treaties, the mention of various kings although I am not sure how much historians have actually verified all these events/people.

Abraham’s story is mainly from Chapter 12 to 24. There are three main events: the births of Ishmael and Isaac, Lot and the destruction of Sodom, and the testing of Abraham.

I love the first part because it is such a soap opera. God has promised Abraham many descendents, but Abraham is worried because he is 86 and Sarah, his 76 year old wife, hasn’t given birth yet. (I am not sure if the ages matter because Adam was 130 when Seth was born.) Sarah willingly gives Abraham her slave, Hagar. Hagar becomes pregnant. Now jealous, Sarah mistreats Hagar who flees to the desert After God promises her that the baby, Ishmael, will be a great man, Hagar returns.

Thirteen years later, Sarah becomes pregnant with Isaac. God again ensures Abraham that his descendents will be numerous and the deal is sealed through circumcision. After the birth of Isaac, Sarah becomes upset when she sees Ishmael playing with his half-brother. Sarah tells Abraham to send Hagar and Ishmael away. Again, in the desert, God promises that Ishmael will have many descendants. I believe the Arabs trace their ancestry through Ishmael while the Jews trace theirs through Isaac.

I am not sure what we learn from this, but at least it gives Days of Our Lives a run for its money.

Lot and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is just plain weird but I love it.

Although he is a good man, Lot, Abraham’s nephew, lives in the wicked town of Sodom. God decides to destroy the city and when he tells Abraham, Abraham barters with him. “If there are 50 good people, will you still destroy the whole town?” God agrees not to and Abraham haggles him down to 45 then 40, then 30 and finally 10. I am not sure what to make of a God who needs a human to point out the obvious. Of course, today’s “acts of God” randomly kill the innocent as well as the sinners so I guess God was just preparing us.

Two angels are sent to Sodom and Lot takes them home. The men of Sodom come to Lot’s house and try to break in. They want to “know” the strangers. Given the meaning of the Biblical know, it is understandable that Lot would refuse. When the men continue to clamor outside his house, Lot does the strangest thing. He offers his two virgin daughters, but the Sodomites are not interested in the women.

Finally the angels blind all the people outside which solves the problem. The next day God sends fire and brimstone. Lot, his wife and his two daughters flee the city and are warned not to look back. Prior to this, Lot had warned his other daughters and sons-in-law to flee as well but they refused. When Lot’s wife looks back she turns into a pillar of salt.

Was Lot’s wife looking back because she missed her home and the perversions of the town? Was she looking back to see if her other daughters had changed their minds? Was she turned into a pillar of salt as punishment for looking back? I would like to know her motive for looking and whether god had a hand in her turning to salt.

Learning this as a child, that was the end of the story. But it isn’t. It gets weirder. Lot’s daughters, assuming that the entire world, as been destroyed, think that there will be no men for them to “preserve the seed of our father”. They get Lot drunk on successive nights, sleep with him, get pregnant and give birth to sons who will became the fathers of the Moabites and the Ammonites.

And people want Judy Blume taken off library shelves.

Whoa, so are you saying that the Bible advocates incest? Ewwwwww!

My thinking, based on my extensive theological education, is that Lot’s wife looks back because she wants to see it burn. Why not? It’s pretty unusual to have a whole city burn down in a day. It might have been exciting to her. But excitement, when it doesn’t involve incest, is pretty much an evil act in the bible. So she of course turns in to that pillar of salt.

The whole daughters getting their dad drunk and the having intercourse with him is not only weird, but it contradicts the earlier chapter when a naked Noah freaks out and curses Ham’s son Canaan.

But why read too much in to the bible. It’s only a book, right?