Im sick and tired of being held a hostage in this town by a few natives that are in it for themselves and not for the good of there people. Do they own all the land in this area? We as TAXES PAYERS seem to have no rights while they go after new businesses and try to destroy others that are already here. Im getting to the point that I feel like selling and moving because the town cant move ahead because of the greed of a few and our weak government that is not willing to stop us from bein held hostage in our own country. Sorry, but Im very pissed off right now.
Agreed and I don’t think you have reason to apologize as this is how some of us feel but as usual have a “gag order” on saying so. Any opinion we have, the race and discrimination cards are pulled out so best to keep our collective mouths shut which I think in itself is discriminatory right there.
There is no “gag order”. HTMF’s archives abound with negative, stereotypical comments about “the natives”. Comments seldom go the other way, against “white” people. The Administrators sometimes send threads to Wasteland, but only when the hyperbole becomes so extreme that the discussion becomes banal and non-productive. Threads sent to Wasteland are sometimes even kept open for a while, so that posters are given a last call of sorts to purge themselves of whatever intemperance and animosity they’ve obviously bottled up inside.
What strikes me is that when we have a concern with civic or provincial affairs we almost always direct our concerns towards our elected leaders. Jacko and before that Herb, and Gordo on the provincial scene are often the subject of contempt, ridicule and abuse on this site for their decisions or inaction on issues of note. I have authored many such comments myself.
When aboriginal issues come onto the podunkian agenda, though, the discussion seems to quickly degenerate into general statements not about particular political leaders or governments, are even the communities that they represent, but about aboriginal people as a whole, as if the issue of the day reflects some deeper inarticulate concern about the state of affairs from coast to coast to coast. Best to stay focused on the issue at hand, I suggest. Chookie reminds us that there are individuals not masses of people behind the decisions.
I think that George T Baker’s article yesterday offers a pretty balanced overview of the situation with Canpotex. The judicial review is not a land dispute, or some kind of action to shut down local businesses.
The environmental “screening” that is being challenged would not ensure public input, about aboriginal concerns or any other concerns. A “comprehensive study” in contrast allows for public input from any perspective (including in support of a project). Perhaps some people are okay with government decisions being made with the door bolted shut, but there is something to be said for greater transparency and opportunities to be heard, I suggest. Further information is available at the CEAA site to assist research on these procedural questions: ceaa-acee.gc.ca/default.asp? … #screening
The allegation is made that the Tsimshian bands oppose economic development. That doesn’t seem to square with the fact that with the imminent closure of the Kitimat mill Coast Tsimshian Resources will be the only forest company of note between here and Smithers. They’ve made TFL #1 viable again after others failed. Lax Kw’alaams also seems to be the only party that is seriously looking at alternate uses for Watson Island. The editor of the Daily News wrote an interesting piece a while back about some development possibilities that the City seems to have completely washed its hands of.
As for the tired refrain about who pays taxes etc and the “us” versus “them” tone of some comments, some stats might assist. The two bands in question total about 4000 people, 3/4 of whom live off-reserve. A great many of those are ordinary citizens of Podunk, where no tax exemptions pertain, other than at Metlakatla’s gas bar in the industrial site; pop and chips are also available.
Podunkians are both aboriginal and non-aboriginal. An irony of the Campotex file and other issues of concern is that the Mayor says that the citizens of this northern burg support the project, while the Tsimshian leaders are alleged to be opposed and undoubtedly have a different approach. Yet the local governments concerned, aboriginal and municipal, are purporting to represent the same off-reserve people, who comprise a significant part of the Podunkian population.
George T Baker wrote an interesting article Tuesday last week about the upcoming Lax Kw’alaams election. He pointed out that many off-reserve members are running for council. This is a change from past practice. In the Esquaga decision in 2008 the Federal Court struck down provisions of the Indian Act that prohibited off-reserve members from running for councillor. (I leave aside that if proposed Band election regulations are approved off-reserve members will be restricted to three out of 12 council positions in future elections.) Perhaps some of those folks may be our best hope on these perplexing issues; the ones who are most likely to find or encourage an acceptable middle ground, and bring an end to the tired “whites” versus “natives” way of thinking.
I should have taken out a copyright on the term podunk and podunkian, I could be rich, rich, rich.
Interesting post, the debate is going to be heated enough without the inevitable downward spiral of the us vs them that seems to come up all the time.
Still I’m not sure about the timing of request for a more comprehensive review, might have been more timely to ask about that during the open house perhaps, making sure that the more desired review was agreed to and the case for it made then.
By taking the step that the First Nations did now, they kind of kicked over a hornet’s nest that perhaps didn’t need to be kicked over.
If Canpotex decides against Prince Rupert, I still don’t think it will be because of the added bit of bureaucracy of a review, rather it will be due to their current economic situation and the fact that they already own a facility in Vancouver, which they did after all recently upgrade.
That upgrade could more than likely serve their needs until the economy turns around and their losses subside, making a larger new terminal more finanacilly secure.
It would be rather wrong if they decide against Rupert and use the “review” as the determining factor for their decision, it would at best be only a sidebar conversation to the bigger picture of the economics of the terminal project.
The move to ask for a larger review is probably just a reminder to the port, that there are still items to be discussed and unresolved issues on other ongoing projects as well, hello phase two.
Amen (but not in a religious way).
The level of review, ie ‘screening’ rather than a ‘comprehensive study’, is not a matter for agreement between the proponent and stakeholders or something that the latter would request of the former in an open house or otherwise.
The CEAA, which is a federal agency, decides how the environmental assessment will be conducted and acts as a coordinator between the agencies having jurisdiction. In some cases this is done in concert with the provincial authorities to avoid duplicate processes.
Small projects, eg federal money is spent on a building, require a ‘screening’ while large, complex projects generally require ‘comprehensive study’. For instance, a comprehensive study has been ordered for Phase 2 of the Port. See: ceaa.gc.ca/050/details-eng.cfm?CEAR_ID=37956
Politics and other matters of concern aside, I was a bit surprised to read that there would only be a screening for what Canpotex is proposing. A project of that magnitude would seem to call for the higher level of review.
If that had been the decision, this issue might have been as newsworthy as the Phase 2 environmental assessment, ie not of much concern at present and apparently a separate matter from the negotiations between the Port and the bands, which seem to be proceeding at glacial speed if at all.
The Tsimshian bands have not sued Canpotex or anyone else. They have petitioned the Court to ‘review’ the federal regulatory decision, probably on grounds of reasonableness and adequacy of consultation prior to the decision. Any decision by any statutory decision-maker is potentially subject to review.
I do not see the bands as having any control over the timing. Once a decision was made by CEAA, short timelines for asking for a judicial review would have kicked in.
I very much agree with that. Many considerations would go into a decision. Regulatory processes are, I suspect, just another day at the office for some of their staff. A proposed facility in Podunk is far from the only issue on their plate. Canpotex has been riding a financial roller-coaster for a while. See: atowncalledpodunk.blogspot.com/2 … 5453939043 .
Subject: URGENT DEADLINE!! CANPOTEX TERMINAL EXPANSION (PRINCE RUPERT): FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION AND EA ACTIVITIES
Importance: High
To all,
In case I did not speak with you tonight, the continued lack of tangible deliverables combined with the increasing inaccurate, uncontrolled and attacking media coverage of our project, the fact our industry does not need immediate new terminal capacity and we have other viable long term location options such as Vancouver and Portland has lead Canpotex to issue the following commercial ultimatum:
WE ALL HAVE UNTIL THE END OF CLOSE FRIDAY OCTOBER 30, 2009 TO DELIVER THE FOLLOWING:
1. OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF THE COAST’S WITHDRAWAL OF THEIR LEGAL APPLICATION FOR JUDICIAL REVIEW OF OUR PROJECT
2. CONFIRMATION FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT CEAA AND THE REGULATORY AGENCIES CAN UNCONDITIONALLY CARRY OUT ALL REQUIRED EA ACTIVITIES INVOLVING CANPOTEX AND ANY/OR ALL OF THE INVOLVED TSIMSHIAN BANDS IMMEDIATELY
3. DAY-TO-DAY WORKING LEVEL ENGAGEMENT WITH KITKALA AND/OR THE COAST LEADING TO EXECUTION OF ALL OR SOME OF THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS: EA MOU, FRAMEWORK NEGOTIATIONS AGREEMENT, IMPACT BENEFITS AGREEMENT ETC.
IF WE DO NOT OBTAIN THE ABOVE, ON NOVEMBER 2, 2009 WE PLAN TO ISSUE A RECOMMENDATION TO OUR BOARD TO NOTSELECT PRINCE RUPERT AND ONLY CONSIDER REVISITING IT WHEN THE FIRST NATIONS AND REGULATORY CLIMATES ARE 100% SUPPORTIVE. WE WILL ASLO BE ISSUING A VERY CLEAR PUBLIC/MEDIA STATEMENT EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHY WE CHOSE NOT TO PROCEED.
Please do not hesitate to pass this message on to anyone who may be able to influence this process.
I am available 24 hours a day for the next four days (Holly, Tom and Ted are also options, as required), to do whatever it takes to facilitate the above deliverables. Please do not hesitate to contact me, at any time.
“Where this is a will, there is a way.â€
[quote=“whiteboy”]
Subject: URGENT DEADLINE!! CANPOTEX TERMINAL EXPANSION (PRINCE RUPERT): FIRST NATIONS CONSULTATION AND EA ACTIVITIES
Importance: High
To all,
In case I did not speak with you tonight, the continued lack of tangible deliverables combined with the increasing inaccurate, uncontrolled and attacking media coverage of our project, the fact our industry does not need immediate new terminal capacity and we have other viable long term location options such as Vancouver and Portland has lead Canpotex to issue the following commercial ultimatum:
WE ALL HAVE UNTIL THE END OF CLOSE FRIDAY OCTOBER 30, 2009 TO DELIVER THE FOLLOWING:
- OFFICIAL RECOGNITION OF THE COAST’S WITHDRAWAL OF THEIR LEGAL APPLICATION FOR JUDICIAL REVIEW OF OUR PROJECT
- CONFIRMATION FROM THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THAT CEAA AND THE REGULATORY AGENCIES CAN UNCONDITIONALLY CARRY OUT ALL REQUIRED EA ACTIVITIES INVOLVING CANPOTEX AND ANY/OR ALL OF THE INVOLVED TSIMSHIAN BANDS IMMEDIATELY
- DAY-TO-DAY WORKING LEVEL ENGAGEMENT WITH KITKALA AND/OR THE COAST LEADING TO EXECUTION OF ALL OR SOME OF THE FOLLOWING DOCUMENTS: EA MOU, FRAMEWORK NEGOTIATIONS AGREEMENT, IMPACT BENEFITS AGREEMENT ETC.
IF WE DO NOT OBTAIN THE ABOVE, ON NOVEMBER 2, 2009 WE PLAN TO ISSUE A RECOMMENDATION TO OUR BOARD TO NOTSELECT PRINCE RUPERT AND ONLY CONSIDER REVISITING IT WHEN THE FIRST NATIONS AND REGULATORY CLIMATES ARE 100% SUPPORTIVE. WE WILL ASLO BE ISSUING A VERY CLEAR PUBLIC/MEDIA STATEMENT EXPLAINING EXACTLY WHY WE CHOSE NOT TO PROCEED.
Please do not hesitate to pass this message on to anyone who may be able to influence this process.
I am available 24 hours a day for the next four days (Holly, Tom and Ted are also options, as required), to do whatever it takes to facilitate the above deliverables. Please do not hesitate to contact me, at any time.
“Where this is a will, there is a way.â€[/quote]
698 seats were filled at the LC when Canpotex et al were in town, and looking around it seemed like a very good representation of out community. I think it’s fair to say that lost people there were very supportive of the possible project.
Whether or not this litigation is really a major road-block, it’s a road-block nonetheless–and might be seen as a warning if things to come if this litigation doesn’t go the way this select group of people wants it to. Canpotex doesn’t have to put up with that group down south, and sobthats where they’ll set up camp. A full theatre, and yet a few people can ruin it for everyone. I’m tired of road-blocks.
Edit: Oh, there you have it. Well done to the few leaders of the coast Tsimshian who just couldn’t resist making a fuss. Well done, indeed.
why should everyone that wants to set up a business to better the northwest have to “consult” (or give money to the natives)the native bands. this area could have so much if they just backed off and typed off some resumes instead of asking for handouts
I don’t understand why they have any day at all in a situation like this. The dint own the land. I say this jokingly, but I’d I buy a lot here one day and decide to build a house, Ill have to watch my back in case these same few people decide I need to consult with or accomodate them first.
Edit: try to ignore the wrong or missed. Posting from my phone is hard.
They never asked my opinion on their new ferry dock…perhaps we should stop that construction, maybe with court action. 
[quote=“eccentric”]
I don’t understand why they have any day at all in a situation like this. The dint own the land.[/quote]
Are you drunk?
Ohhhhhhhh decker…Ouch… 
I’ll keep my opinion to myself on this one but ouch…!!!
Needless to say, I would bet that if we dispensed with the political correctness atmosphere of “accomodation due to sensitivities” and said exactly what (I suspect) a good portion of (even) we, the First Nations, really think about the “consultation” process, we could get to the real heart of the motivations of the process.
This is just my opinion on the matter, which, I am entitled to; but I’d hope anyone in a position to have an economic-negative-effect on the parties involved in this obstruction of business here would do just that - have a negative effect. This litigation will have far reaching consequences (as we can infer that Canpotex will simply move their operation to the Vancouver site - ). I personally won’t forget the negative impact if that happens. I would hope that nobody else does, either.
Put simply, it’s hard enough to live in this town regarding income and bills, the last thing we need are more ambulance chasers chasing off business. Cityhall doesn’t need any more help with that.
you dont need to everyone is entitled to thier opinion. im fed up with this town not getting ahead for that reason its my opinion
well after having read these posts, onething comes to the forefront, it seems to me that issues of first nations being able to, and im going to go out on a limb here, blokade, use goverment as puppets to futher their own agendas and for the most part do so somewhat above the law, has hit a nerve with some of us, now i know that i am going to sound racist to some, but i do see myself as somewhat of a realist, in that we are all one country with the same laws and access to education, medical treatment and all other things that make Canada a great nation, not biased toward any one race. Pls before i get drowned in rebuttals let me once again say that im all for one having a great nation where all citizens are treated equally.
I am tired of, as many have stated, any opinion regarding any First Nations issue, regarded as racist which in itself I believe is a form of reverse racism. We discuss the many points to the death on this great forum but we will never come to a general concensus. As you stated, all citizens are treated equally, as it should be, but there are always those who deny and even abuse this equality. It will never end if our Federal government continues to bend to the threat of the racist card used to support any position they feel they have whether warranted or not. It is almost a fear tactic and in my opinion, which means nothing, it is getting old.
i agree it is getting old when i have to work 2 jobs to support my family to make sure we have everything we want and more.