Bill Gates blasts the Anti-Vax conspiracy nuts

cnn.com/2011/HEALTH/02/03/gu … index.html

“Dr. Wakefield has been shown to have used absolutely fraudulent data. He had a financial interest in some lawsuits, he created a fake paper, the journal allowed it to run. All the other studies were done, showed no connection whatsoever again and again and again. So it’s an absolute lie that has killed thousands of kids.”

From about 28 seconds in to 32 seconds. “It reduces population growth”. I wonder what he meant by that?

Healthy, prosperous societies have fewer children per family. I think that’s what he’s getting at.

“What you are seeing is that the density in the poor areas is greater than they can grow the food, greater than they can educate, greater than they can provide jobs. So you create these hot spots of instability. So even if all you care about is national security, these health things are a very cheap way to make sure you are not going to have turmoil that would eventually affect the whole world.”

“The general idea of the rich helping the poor, I think, is important. That your sense of justice says, why should rich kids – who barely get these diseases and almost never die of them – why should they get the vaccines, when poor kids, who actually do die from these diseases, don’t get those things? It’s an unbelievable inequity that there isn’t that access. It’s been 15 years, usually, between when rich kids get vaccines and poor kids do.”

Meanwhile, on the anti-vax front, Huffington Post has been sold to AOL. Though it’s not the only website that anti-vax nuts a platform, it was one of the most prominent. Good to see there is some justice :smile: HuffPo and AOL deserve each other.

I see his/your point but really, how could a vaccine make people prosperous? This won’t reduce population growth LOL!!!

You don’t think that healthy people are more prosperous? Or you don’t think vaccines make people healthy? Or you don’t think prosperous people have fewer children?

I’m not sure I get your objection – can you point out which of those you don’t accept?

I think it’s a straightforward argument.

If you invest a ton of resources into a child, and he dies before he is 7 or 8 years old, you’ve lost quite a bit. You tend to hedge your bets by having even more children. And if those children aren’t healthy, then you spend more resources taking care of them.

Healthy populations can prosper much easier than sick populations. And prosperous populations, in turn, have fewer children.

I think that’s been the demographic story of North America in the past few generations, hasn’t it?

[quote=“MiG”]

You don’t think that healthy people are more prosperous? Or you don’t think vaccines make people healthy? Or you don’t think prosperous people have fewer children?

I’m not sure I get your objection – can you point out which of those you don’t accept?[/quote]

Vaccines do not make people healthy or prosperous. Vaccines merely give you immunity against specific diseases.

Well, I guess that’s the point we disagree on. Vaccines do make you healthy, by preventing disease. If you don’t agree with that, then there’s really no point in arguing it, is there?

But anyway, my point wasn’t to bring up an argument about whether preventing a disease makes one healthy or not, because I think that’s a given.

My point was to bring up the fact that Bill Gates speaks the truth on the anti-vax movement. That it has caused great harm, and in hindsight, it looks like all those conspiracy guys were duped by Wakefield. And they spread a meme that was very harmful.

[quote=“MiG”]

Well, I guess that’s the point we disagree on. Vaccines do make you healthy, by preventing disease. If you don’t agree with that, then there’s really no point in arguing it, is there?

But anyway, my point wasn’t to bring up an argument about whether preventing a disease makes one healthy or not, because I think that’s a given.

My point was to bring up the fact that Bill Gates speaks the truth on the anti-vax movement. That it has caused great harm, and in hindsight, it looks like all those conspiracy guys were duped by Wakefield. And they spread a meme that was very harmful.[/quote]

I think it is a far stretch that saving 4.5 million children per year will somehow reduce population growth.

Sorry if the whole population dynamics thing is flying over your head, you’re doing a great job of applying your addition skills though Mr. Dex!!!

It is my view that if you do not vaccinate your child youre a moron incapable of raising a child and therefore should have the child removed from your care. Same goes for pets. Way to spread disease asshats.

So tell me since this “population dynamic” science is apparently beyond me, what percentage will the population growth decrease be in the next ten years; and the following ten years, and the following ten years after. And could someone elaborate on the prosperity this vaccine will bring to the less fortunate? I mean to bring these people up to our standard of living/prosperity. Or at least until there is enough prosperity so they do not reproduce as much. And how much prosperity must they have before we can see a difference in pop growth?

I think the idea is noble and worthy. I just hate when they make it sound like it is going to save the world, stop wars, feed the hungry, bring stability to the world, prosperity for everyone, etc. It’s just a vaccine that can save lives!!!

Speaking Of Spreading Diseases

The January issue of National Geographic has an excellent article on population and demographics.

ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/ … unzig-text

The article describes an oft repeating phenomenon where programs of better health, wealth and vaccinations lead to much higher populations. In poor or pre-industrial economies, couples have 5 or more children. High infant and child mortality ensures that only 2 - 3 survive long enough to have children of their own, and population rises slowly.

Better health programs that come with prosperity tend to drastically reduce infant and child mortality. Now 5 - 6 children are surving to have 5 - 6 children of their own. Adults are also living slightly longer. At this stage populations balloon. It takes a generation or more family size to catch up with new mortality patterns.

Onlyafter 50 years or so do populations begin to stabilize, with smaller family sizes becoming the norm. Social engineering projects that attempt to hasten the arrival of this stage have mixed results (Judge for yourself the success of China’s one child policy , or India’s program of forced sterilization.)

I like this link better: Re: Mumps outbreak - lower mainland

You probably weren’t around HTMF at the time, Dex, but a few prominent HTMF members insisted that vaccines really did cause Autism. They claimed it was a global conspiracy, by Big Pharma, and that anybody who wasn’t a true believer was in on the conspiracy. Turns out the complete opposite was true. The anti-vaxers were actually helping Wakefield, who had a huge financial interest in fabricating his work.

Not a peep out of them now that the Wakefield MMR=Autism thing has been thoroughly debunked. I guess the Illuminati shut them up?

Sums up the North American experience nicely. Previous generations had huge families. How many brothers and sisters do your parents or grandparents have? How many died young?

A large part of the reason mortality has increased is vaccination.

But you’re arguing with someone who thinks that “Vaccines do not make people healthy …” so I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere.

Four.
One.
Because they didn’t have a goddam vaccine for that until the 1980s…

So now your saying vaccines increase population growth? facepalm

[quote=“Dex”]

So now your saying vaccines increase population growth? facepalm[/quote]

facepalm you’re :smile:

[quote=“MiG”]

But you’re arguing with someone who thinks that “Vaccines do not make people healthy …” so I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere.[/quote]

If you are already “unhealthy” from a disease a vaccine for that disease will not work. A vaccine does not cure people who are already infected with the disease. As a side note, you can still contract and succumb to the disease after you have received the vaccine. In other words, if you are already unhealthy from a disease a vaccine will not make you healthy. To say vaccine’s make people healthy is false and helps confuse people of the nature of what vaccines are and can do. You could say vaccines can help keep people healthy, which would be more appropriate and better descriptive. In conclusion, vaccines do not make people healthy.