BC HST: Gone

[quote=“PLA”]
So if you need someone to blame for bringing the Winter Olympics (which I enjoyed the international festivities while it last), that would be the 86,113 Vancouverites who voted “YES” eight years ago.[/quote]

The buck stops with the government as they write the cheques. They could have stopped the process or at least warned Vancouverites citing an inability to pay for the games. The people of Vancouver were given an unrealistic estimate of the cost of the games. I clearly remember an international Olympic official characterizing the estimate for the cost of the games as “lean.”

Welcome to Democracy my friend. :smiley:

They have spoken regardless. lol

[quote=“hitest”]

[quote=“PLA”]
So if you need someone to blame for bringing the Winter Olympics (which I enjoyed the international festivities while it last), that would be the 86,113 Vancouverites who voted “YES” eight years ago.[/quote]

The buck stops with the government as they write the cheques. They could have stopped the process or at least warned Vancouverites citing an inability to pay for the games. The people of Vancouver were given an unrealistic estimate of the cost of the games. I clearly remember an international Olympic official characterizing the estimate for the cost of the games as “lean.”[/quote]

NDP supporters constant hectoring over the Olympics, reminds me of the volume of blather we heard about the Fast Ferries back in the day from those on the right.

In the end, it really has little real relevance to the concept of governing a province on the day to day requirements.

All governments require taxation to develop their programs and operate those services which we seem to want, but somehow don’t actually feel the need to pay for. While the HST was probably not the smoothest plan ever put in place by a government (obviously considering the outcome of the vote) the bottom line is, that the province needs money to operate and without the HST (and with the need to now pay back our advance so to speak) there will be less to go around than even before.

As much as I dislike taxation, I do understand the need for it and only wish that the process was better utilized to reflect our requirements, but when you need the money, you need the money, otherwise the only alternative is to cut, cut and cut.

I’m still not sure folks completely get that concept, and when they demand the government fix education, fix health care etc, etc, etc, how exactly is that going to take place?

"As much as I dislike taxation, I do understand the need for it and only wish that the process was better utilized to reflect our requirements, but when you need the money, you need the money, otherwise the only alternative is to cut, cut and cut.

I’m still not sure folks completely get that concept, and when they demand the government fix education, fix health care etc, etc, etc, how exactly is that going to take place?"

Raise corporate and income tax to a level that supports all necessary programs, health care, etc. and do it up front so people expect it. Don’t throw in a consumption tax after saying you weren’t going to.

Raise corporate tax: I think I’ll live with that as long it’s done in moderation, and not to the point where it’ll make it less attractive and difficult to invest in BC. Especially with the economy and jobs in mind.

As for HST: If the BC Liberals have properly informed and consulted the public, there wouldn’t be a shit storm in terms of outrage like it did for the last two years.

Sadly now, raising the tax would be meant for covering the $3 billion shortfall.

[quote=“Smurfette”]

All governments require taxation to develop their programs and operate those services which we seem to want, but somehow don’t actually feel the need to pay for. While the HST was probably not the smoothest plan ever put in place by a government (obviously considering the outcome of the vote) the bottom line is, that the province needs money to operate and without the HST (and with the need to now pay back our advance so to speak) there will be less to go around than even before.

As much as I dislike taxation, I do understand the need for it and only wish that the process was better utilized to reflect our requirements, but when you need the money, you need the money, otherwise the only alternative is to cut, cut and cut.

I’m still not sure folks completely get that concept, and when they demand the government fix education, fix health care etc, etc, etc, how exactly is that going to take place?[/quote]

I agree that taxation is needed to fund the programs and infrastructure we want. I have never complained about being taxed.

I agree that taxation policy by referendum is dumb. I hope we never have to go through this process again. But that means governments need to be more honest about their intentions. In a radio interview Vander Zalm made the point that the public can be very forgiving of a government that does not do something they promised. We understand that election promises are wish lists of things we would like to see and if all are not done, we get that. However, when a government says it is not going to do something and then goes ahead and does it anyway, the knifes come out. And so they should.

And with this government who rode to power on the promise of not selling BCRail and not ripping up contracts and then got re-elected with the promise that the HST was not in their plans, most of the public got fed up.

As for the tax itself, I have read a lot of information on the topic and whether it is a progressive or regressive tax makes interesting reading. I like to think of myself as relatively intelligent and especially willing to see both sides of an issue, and I have to admit that I am not 100% convinced by either argument. That’s why taxation policy should not be a referendum issue.

What I don’t like is the fearmongering by proponents of the tax. We already have Falcon saying that cuts will have to occur and that the losss of the HST will blow a $3B hole in the budget.

But this tax was brought in with the promise that it would be revenue neutral. It was not a tax grab, just a $2B a year tax shift from corporations to consumers. Now whether that is good or bad is another interesting topic and probably another reason why tax policy should not be a referendum issue. But if the government is to be believed, we will be going back to a taxation system that brought in the same amount of money that the HST wouldl bring in. No cuts should occur.

In an ideal world, the Liberals should call an election. (In a sense, they lost a confidence vote.) They are still convinced that the HST is the best tax for BC. They took an unpopular tax (85% opposed at the beginning) to one that now has 45% of the people supporting it. Campaign on the HST and other policies. Force the NDP to come up with its own tax policy.

Let the people decide which party they trust the most to do the best for the province.

[quote=“DWhite”]
In an ideal world, the Liberals should call an election. (In a sense, they lost a confidence vote.) They are still convinced that the HST is the best tax for BC. They took an unpopular tax (85% opposed at the beginning) to one that now has 45% of the people supporting it. Campaign on the HST and other policies. Force the NDP to come up with its own tax policy.

Let the people decide which party they trust the most to do the best for the province.[/quote]

I am going to go out on a limb and predict that Clark will not call an election in the very near future. I base this on my observations of her cautious approach to campaigning, that is, her close call in Vancouver Point Grey. I could be dead wrong on this (I’ll be impressed if she has the temerity to call an election now). I will eat crow if I’m wrong on this. The Liberals may perceive that the mood of BC voters is ugly right now. It may be prudent for Clark to wait six months or a year and put the HST smack down onto the back burner.
Interesting times ahead. :smile:

Clark’s not stupid. Calling an election soon would be suicide.
Starting as early as Monday, we should hear from businesses ‘reconsidering’ opening in BC. Then from the Libs about how they must cut business’s share of the PST to keep investment alive and that will make the defect even bigger.

all I can say is the ppl voted even though it was a slim majority so all the unions that want increases next contract talks and went out of their way to defeat the HST is this, lets give the ppl of the province the right to vote on their new contracts that they want under the same rules as the HST vote, what do you think would happen, so guess what hope your happy with zero, zero, zero for the next few years.

[quote=“herbie_popnecker”]Clark’s not stupid. Calling an election soon would be suicide.
Starting as early as Monday, we should hear from businesses ‘reconsidering’ opening in BC. Then from the Libs about how they must cut business’s share of the PST to keep investment alive and that will make the defect even bigger.[/quote]

I am also curious to hear what “administrative changes” that Falcon will make to the PST. I suspect that he will be a bit cautious this time around.

Glad the HST will be gone… As a BCGEU member all that was going to happen is zero anyway with or without the HST…
The HST steals more money out of my pocket every day than any gain from a raise anyway… Happy to have a public service job and the unions have worked very hard to acquire what we have… The anti union people can scrape by on BC’s new minium wage …

[quote=“jamesbrown”]

Glad the HST will be gone… As a BCGEU member all that was going to happen is zero anyway with or without the HST…
The HST steals more money out of my pocket every day than any gain from a raise anyway… Happy to have a public service job and the unions have worked very hard to acquire what we have… The anti union people can scrape by on BC’s new minium wage …[/quote]

Ah that’ll be helpful to the union/non union debate in the province, good work!

[quote=“jamesbrown”]Glad the HST will be gone… As a BCGEU member all that was going to happen is zero anyway with or without the HST…
The HST steals more money out of my pocket every day than any gain from a raise anyway… Happy to have a public service job and the unions have worked very hard to acquire what we have…[/quote]

More like negative than zero after HST. And BTW and not to be shallow, but enjoy your public sector job while last. It may not be around soon but you could be lucky.

Oh, and brace for that higher income tax. The Liberal may not do that because they prefer a big ass chainsaw instead, but that Adrian Dix character will.

I’m not an anti-union guy, but I do have concerns with certain labour groups which I feel their politics are just as horrendous as some certain corporate board of directors. One has to look at CAW and the Canada Post workers. Not to mention Air Canada.

But I support the teachers on fighting for smaller class sizes, and the BC Ambulance paramedics deserve better pay.

[quote=“PLA”]

[quote=“jamesbrown”]Glad the HST will be gone… As a BCGEU member all that was going to happen is zero anyway with or without the HST…
The HST steals more money out of my pocket every day than any gain from a raise anyway… Happy to have a public service job and the unions have worked very hard to acquire what we have…[/quote]

More like negative than zero after HST. And BTW and not to be shallow, but enjoy your public sector job while last. It may not be around soon but you could be lucky.

Oh, and brace for that higher income tax. The Liberal may not do that because they prefer a big ass chainsaw instead, but that Adrian Dix character will.

I’m not an anti-union guy, but I do have concerns with certain labour groups which I feel their politics are just as horrendous as some certain corporate board of directors. One has to look at CAW and the Canada Post workers.

But I support the teachers on fighting for smaller class sizes, and the BC Ambulance paramedics deserve better pay.[/quote]

PLA: I did my time on minium wage and sure my job may go but the BCGEU is working very hard to maintain things… without unions people will end up on the streets. Unions are far from perfect but the management of government agencies are paid far higher than us or most private sector positions… unions are helping us maintain a living wage…

I’m actually glad your union did what they’re mean to do, and that is to protect your rights as a worker. I think my experience working in a unionized position back in the days wasn’t as good as others despite the high wages for a summer student back then.

But no worries, I didn’t brush all organized labour with the same colour.

[quote=“jamesbrown”]
I did my time on minium wage and sure my job may go but the BCGEU is working very hard to maintain things… without unions people will end up on the streets. Unions are far from perfect but the management of government agencies are paid far higher than us or most private sector positions… unions are helping us maintain a living wage…[/quote]

I wonder if anyone know how much union president etc. gets paid.

Teacher’s union president in PR gets paid the same salary as they would as a teacher.

True.

In my union they had a clause that said a union president could earn no more than 10% above that of the highest paid wage they represented.

That sounds fair to me considering all the time away from home and family.

Back to the HST, we can always start up a new thread exploring the union/non union dynamic.

Oh oh, big winners with the death of the HST — The Banks, Insurance companies. Yep they needed a helping hand…

The big losers, the poor, those with children it seems, who will lose out on cold hard cash when those HST cheques stop coming in the mail.

Here are just a few things the YES side led by that well know champion of the people Bill Vander Zalm neglected to mention.

timescolonist.com/business/L … story.html