Re: Registered Massage Therapists

I also have back problems and have had more success with resistance training, and more importantly by stretching exercises. Some of the exercises I couldn’t even do one rep, but after some time could do many with no pain. Back pain now mostly produced by arthritis.

Yeah, I’ve had sucess with both. But my back is extremely stubborn. And I’m lazy, so…

if your back is out of alignment, then no matter how much core work you do, you’re not going to get it back into alignment.  It’s good to use a combination of chiropract(ry?) AND core conditioning.

And I equate going to the chiro with the dentist.

You get a cavity, you have to go a couple of times to get it fixed up, then you’re good for awhile, but you still go back to get regular cleanings and check ups. 

You hurt your back, you go a couple of times to get it fixed up, then you’re good for awhile, but you still go back to get regular adjustments.

Excellent analogy Princess, I’m sure both Karen and Linda would agree. And regular exercise is just as important as daily brushing.

Agreed.  I get into trouble when I’m sedentary and I don’t do my stretching and exercise.  If I keep in relatively good shape my back remains pain free.

Acupuncture works for that kind of thing, and it’s been around for thousands of years and there has been a lot of recent research to support that it’s very effective.

Check the thread shawn has started,  he found some extra needles… :imp:

Actually, recent studies show acupuncture works no better than the placebo effect.

I don’t know what studies you have read, but if you search for “acupuncture” on, a website for peer-review scientific articles, you’ll find more articles that state is in effective.  Also, it’s just one of several modalities used in China for thousands of years and up to this day.

These were controlled clinical trials with three groups, one getting nothing, another getting needles and another getting sham needles (ie: a fake looking needle which didn’t pierce the skin). They checked for pain, nausea, addiction and a few others and found no difference. It didn’t even matter where they placed the needles.

I’d have to go searching for the link. These are recent trials. This is the first time anyone has used a placebo method of testing.

Well, there definitely is an effect, but it’s at the same level as a placebo.  That doesn’t mean it doesn’t “work” but it works just as well whether or not the needles are actually used.  

Just like a lot of the voodoo/witch doctor alternative medicine out there, the effect is probably from being forced to stay still for a half hour.  Not from any of the woo and superstition.  

The efficacy of science-based psysio and massage therapy blow the hell out of any superstition-based medicine any day.

Saying something’s been around for thousands of years doesn’t make it plausible.  For thousands of years we thought the Earth was flat.  For thousands of years we didn’t know germs caused diseases.

[quote]What does the evidence show for the chi theory of acupuncture? The evidence is overwhelmingly negative, and this study supports this negative consensus. Most well-designed studies that compare traditional and sham acupuncture show no difference between the groups. In this study the two groups were 47% and 44% respectively.

This means that it does not matter where you put the needles or if you manipulate them in any way – that’s because there are no lines of flowing chi.[/quote]

The fact is, matter is energy (E=MCsquared right?) and they’re always interchanging.  Now this is a bit of a jump but, assume energy is the template matter follows i.e. consciousness is the template for reality.  If you have an imbalance in your emotional, physical, mental etc. energy you will experience physical problems, which would explain the placebo effect, imaginary pregnancies, the book The Secret and why everything goes wrong when you’re pissed off. 

Holism is the cutting edge of science: multi-dimensionality, zero-point energy and other freaky stuff.  Biomedical science is a bit behind, relying more on a Newtonian mechanical understanding, so I understand your skepticism,  but you could look at chi, or qi, as just the rate of exchange between energy and matter.

Also, while I agree just because something’s been around for thousands of years doesn’t mean it works generally, in this case it existed in a very pragmatic culture exposed to many healing modalities (some, like yoga, ginseng, and ling zhi which have irrefutably been proven effective) and was kept on.  Not only kept but given it’s own hospitals in a progressive country of 1.3 billion people in modern day China.

Anyway, it’s going to be a margarine vs. butter issue for a while yet but what’s clear to me is that energy medicine, including acupuncture, is a valuable aspect of holistic health that will eventually come to be recognized as integral. 

Right, I forgot the psychogenic effect.  :roll:

Nice logical fallacies though.

Such as? The argumentum ad hominem you’re using?

I don’t think anybody’s insulted you personally, Punky Brewster, so there’s no Ad Hominem.

But I do think you’re asking people to accept superstition as “cutting edge science” is a bit of special pleading.  Especially when you’ve made the point that this particular type of superstition is thousands of years old.

Your constant referral to the billion Chinese who apparently share a belief in this superstition is the logical fallacy known as argumentum ad populum.

Perhaps a bit of a false dichotomy as well, since you try and compare poking needles in one’s body to western medicine.  But somebody who is better at formal logical can correct me on that one.

Anyway “Science” isn’t a thing to be proven or disproven.  It’s a process.  You make a testable hypothesis and it can be proven or disproven, etc. 

In this case, the testable hypothesis is that sticking needles in well defined places of the human body can cure diseases.  The evidence is clear that there is a placebo effect, it doesn’t doesn’t matter really where you poke the needles, and that you don’t really even have to use needles – simply simulating needles will produce the same effect.

Thousands of years of superstition, sure.  Accepted by billions?  Sure.  Nobody disputes any of that.

Same effect as poking someone at random with a toothpick?  Yes.

OK, fair reasoning.

I thought soggy was saying my argument was psychogenic, hence the ad hominem claim.

My argument’s Chinese populace component hinged on the word “pragmatic” making it no more an argument ad populum than the peer-review process used by journals.

The implied logical step I guess I didn’t make clear is that science continues to confirm a number of ancient precepts, and it’s my opinion energy medicine will be one.
So where I’m equating traditional science with modern science is where they are both empirical, not the hypothesis & deduction that marks western science.

Regarding the efficacy of acupuncture vs sham acupuncture, that’s a fair point for some conditions, but not for others, like in vitro fertilization.  Furthermore, there are many other useful Traditional herbal, dietary, exercise and meditative modalities that are often combined with an acupuncture treatment to increase efficacy.

[quote=“Punky Brewster”]
I thought soggy was saying my argument was psychogenic, hence the ad hominem claim.[/quote]

No, I think he was saying that the effect of putting needles in ones body can be considered psychogenic.  But he can speak for himself.

If it relaxes and you believe in the superstition behind the practice, it will definitely have some measurable and real effect.  This is the epitome of the placebo effect.  That’s not really a negative value judgement, since it’s clear that it relaxes and has a valuable effect.  

Well, again, when you randomize and double-blind, there is no effect, other than the above-mentioned, very real, placebo effect.

The impact of acupuncture on in vitro fertilizatio… [Fertil Steril. 2009] - PubMed result

So basically, relaxing helped with fertilization.  It didn’t matter if you did this with acupuncture or using some other method.

I’m sure there are, and when you separate them out and study them independently, some are much more effective than others.  And some are just woo and superstition.

There’s no doubt that meditation, diet, exercise all have very real effects.  But they are often interwoven with religion, superstition and other supernatural beliefs.  

In my opinion, it’s not logical to attribute the effects of these practices to the supernatural, when there are very clear non-supernatural explanations.  You don’t have to be a Buddist to “believe” that Buddist meditation and relaxation have very real positive effects.  It works on lapsed Catholics too :smile:   But attributing that effect to the superstitious or supernatural part is what I have a problem with.

And I think that’s what I see with acupuncture.  There is a real psychogenic effect going on.  It really does make you feel better.  But you don’t need to buy into the supernatural and superstitious explanations to make it work.  It works just as well if you use toothpicks, and aren’t precise about the locations, etc.  Because the effects aren’t really caused by the supernatural, they’re caused by relaxing and meditating, right?

all i want to know is if there are happy ending massage therapists in town.

MiG had it right. I meant the effect was psychogenic.

Apparently, in some cultures there are shamans that kill with their curses. It seems to depend one’s willingness to believe.

Magnetic bracelets, hypnosis, titanium oxide patches, healing spectrum rays, whatever your focus. If it gets you through the day, fine. However I believe in what can be quantified, tested and confirmed.

Massage, stretching, resistance training and the occasional good cookie can get me through several weeks with relatively little pain.

I kind of like my Mood Ring.