Linux Laptop

No, you gotta stop thinking that average users are like us – they aren’t.

And I’m not a “fan boy” – attacking the person instead of the point is typical ad hominem – it shows that you think your position is weak. 

You know I ONLY Linux servers, right? 6 of them. Including a new Linux desktop (ubuntu!) thin client server?  But hey, I get paid well to do this stuff :wink:    You won’t find anything but linux running my world.  There’s a Linux fish on my car, not an Apple logo.

But I’m not the average person either.  And neither are you.

Calling me an Apple “fan boy” is showing your ignorance of a lot of things.

The graphics card complaint and wifi complaint are really irrelevant if you bought a computer and devices supported by linux it wouldnt be a problem. I am guessing your dell laptop has an ati or nvidia card and some other unsupported card. You wouldnt buy a dell to run osx would you? then why would you buy a computer that doesnt have devices supported by linux.  The rest of that I dont see any problems from a computer literate person, unless by computer literate you mean they know how to use nero and only nero.

The graphics card complaint and wifi complaint are really irrelevant if you bought a computer and devices supported by linux it wouldnt be a problem.[/quote]

You’re kidding, right?  So now the average person has another complaint about Linux (“It won’t work with my computer”).  You don’t get how wrong your original point was (“use Linux, don’t buy a Mac and you’ll get less complaints”).

Again, the average person wouldn’t know what the hell your “buy a compatible graphics card or wifi” sentence means.  They can’t walk into a store and say that they want to “buy a computer with a graphics card and a WiFi adapter that is supported by Ubuntu Dapper Drake.” 

No, the average person wants a computer that works.  That’s either Windows or Mac OS X. 

Stop hoshq-ing and focus on your original point (actually it was Jason’s – you were just agreeing):

You said not to buy a Mac because of complaints.  I think that’s wrong – that’s the primary reason you would buy a Mac, fewer complaints.  Your average person would complain a lot more about Windows and Linux.

And I have more Linux machines than I have Macs, you know.  I’m a “fanboy” because I think you’re wrong?

Mig that is a tough one. the mac book’s if its the pro or just basic mac book they run good but just so hot Most would complain that it is running to hot. I was up at the university talking to the tech there about my laptop and they sold about 8 mac book’s in the week and 5 have come back WHY because they jsut get to hot. People want a laptop they can use with out getting burned…

Now you are right about the os, it does not get viruses or spyware’s etc etc. I have yet to format my g3 server since a year ago getting it. To help more it doesn’t even have a keyboard mouse attached just a ethernet cable and a power cable. When i moved i walked up to it pushed the power button it turned off. I moved to my new house plugged it in and well its still running.

I agree that the macbook and pro are really really nice machines. I bet rev 2.0 will be better with the cpu heat and screen whine complaint’s. I’m a screen whinnying complainer also.

Just my 2 cent’s  I can say that more linux users buy ibooks and power books than a normal dell / ibm and use that. Why … because the hardware is so the same in every model. I saw a linux guy up at the school yesterday and i asked him what he runs his linux on. He said * quote altho osx is nice fast i love my linux *  so what does he use.  the exact same thing you do Mig.  A g4 12" powerbook running linux. He states that he likes it because the hardware never changes and it is so easy to get all teh devices running INCLUDING the hard to get Bluetooth.

Here is a picture of my laptop sitting with msn running and entourage. And it sits at this temperature.

This has been an interesting discussion indeed.  First, let me say that I’m possibly the biggest Linux idiot around, I love open source software.  But, I think it is misleading to claim that Linux would generate fewer complaints than OS X or Windows for that matter.
Linux is making great strides, but, they’re not there yet.  The good people at Novell are creating an exceptional product, their Suse desktop, is very user friendly and easy to use.
But, to argue that Linux will have fewer customer complaints is plain silly.  There are a lot of things that we *nix people do that will mystify, baffle the novice user.
For example, when a windows user goes to a website that requires flash a nice GUI opens up in IE or FF and guides them through the installation.  That isn’t always the case with my favourite operating system.  More often than not when a plug-in is needed on my Ubuntu boxes or my Slackware box the plug-in finder fails and a manual install is required.  Imagine Grandma trying to open up a shell prompt, navigate to her download directory, extract the tarball and install flash?  Not likely to happen.
For a novice user OS X or Windows is easier to use, configure out of the box.  I have great respect for my fellow Linux users on this board, but, our OS has a ways to go before Joe average computer user will choose Linux.  Having said all that though I’d never run winders as my primary work station.  As a rabid Linux user I never miss an opportunity to extoll the virtues of Linux.
Slackware rocks. :smiley:

:unamused: You dont get it do you? if someone who didnt know computers wanted a linux machine they wouldnt go buy a dell and slap linux on it they would go to a vendor and buy a computer with linux on it just like they would go to a vendor and buy a computer with osx or windows.  You’re a fanboy because you refuse to admit that osx isnt the supreme operating system you act it is.

Funny just like in windows when I go to a flash site and dont have the flash plugin I get prompted to install flash and click the install button wham flash is installed.  Again a newbie user who wnats linux wouldnt install it on some piece of hardware they picked up at bobs computer store they’d buy a pre-installed PC from a linux vendor.

A pre-installed Linux desktop will still have configuring to do.  Which average user is going to want to pay $75/hour to set-up the printer, digital camera, etc in Linux ( I doubt the Linux vendor is going to make house calls to set-up all of that)?  In windows/OS X all of the hardware pretty much takes care of itself.
You have not put forth an adequate counter to my premise that Linux is difficult to configure for novice computer users.

Ah come on, you’re pulling a hoshq. Â Instead of admitting that an average use would “complain more” about Linux than Mac OS X, you’re trying to take this everywhere else.

You’re calling me a fanboy just makes my point – you’d rather do the ad hominem thing than take on a simple point. Â And you even get the fanboy thing totally wrong. Â Would a “fanboy” have more linux boxes than Mac boxes?

But seriously, no more hosh-q-ing:  do you still stand by your point (actually Jason’s) not to buy a Mac because of “complaining” ?  Or do you think there would be less complaining if an average person bought a linux box?

Go to a website that requires Sun Java with Firefox. Easy enough to configure on Windows, already built-in on Mac OS X, and how do you do it in Linux? Bust out the command-line and alienate 90% of average computer users.

I love Linux, but my mother won’t ever use it without a lot of support.Â

Also I love that “to hoshq” has become a verb.

Well-said, MiG.  I’d love to see Grandma be able to do chmod to get root access to properly configure Sun java for Fire Fox…that’s easy to do…heh-heh. :smiley:

Again, if you buy a pre-installed linux computer with an approved printer just like you would for osx or windows then its not a problem. Have you not used the printer wizard in ubuntu? I have and i had to select my printer model and click ok that was pretty tough. 

As for java, well break out synaptic and type in jre or sun or java and look what turns up.  What do you have to do to install java in windows… oh right download it and install it, in my opinion loading 1 application to install everything you need is superior to searching the web for applications and downloading spyware laden applications.  This whole argument is retarded but my point stands is osx isnt as great as you and others claim.

The complaints against the current revision of the macbook are a reason I would not buy one, another is that I do not see myself paying for an OS which has no features that interest me.

Oh and for your mom and grandma comments, my grandma used linux until my aunt complained at me for 4 hours because she couldnt use her screensaver from work  :unamused:

Im done with the discussion now  because these are the kinds of arguments that go nowhere.

chmod to get root access hey?  :confused:

Why don’t you read the Sun instructions before you post?  Copied and pasted from Sun java site

"To install the Linux (self-extracting) file

Follow these instructions:

  1. At the terminal: Type:
  2. Enter the root password.
  3. Change to the directory in which you want to install. Type:
      For example, to install the software in the /usr/java/ directory, Type:
      cd /usr/java/

      Note about root access: To install the JRE in a system-wide location such as /usr/local, you must login as the root user to gain the necessary permissions. If you do not have root access, install the JRE in your home directory or a subdirectory for which you have write permissions.
  4. Change the permission of the file you downloaded to be executable. Type:
      chmod a+x jre-1_5_0-linux-i586.bin
  5. Verify that you have permission to execute the file. Type:
      ls -l

Make sure the installation file has executable permission

  6. Start the installation process.Type:

I can see that you are not open to a discussion, that you have one point of view.  Not a problem.

Because he wants to believe he’s right :wink:

Also, the JRE and the plug-in are two different things.  Won’t install using Synaptic, hence the complaining.

Seriously, fire up Firefox in Ubuntu and go to a website with a Java applet and see what happens.

Now do the same in Windows.  Do the same in Mac OS X.

Which do you think people would complain the most about?  The least?

I stand by my statement about Linux being tougher for the average user than OS X or Windows.
Now if Grandma had an uber nerd for a son then she could probably get away with using Linux.  But, the average novice user will need more support in Linux than with winders, OS X.

I dont usually get involved in these kind of things but I do feel the need to throw in my .02 here.

My experiences with Linux:

I have a Thinkpad, PIII. I had some wireless stuff I wanted to try. My wireless card is a Netgear 401, Prism2 chipset, circa oh, late 2001 maybe? Out of the box installs of Mandrake and Ubuntu that were current Feb last year (I dont recall which versions) both failed to recognize the wireless card. I had trouble with OOTB installs of KDE on both distros. I had to tweak ubuntu a bit but I got it to at least display at 1024x768 correctly. Mandrake I gave up on.

There were some other issues with both distro’s that frustrated me. No I did not setup a printer, no need for it.

After about 4 hrs of wasted time with both distros I fell back to FreeBSD, v5.4, which is admittedly what I’m more familiar with and had a little problem with the wireless, but the KDE install was flawless. Easier than both Ubuntu and mandrake. But maybe thats just me.

I have not even looked at installing Linux on any machine I have, both production servers or at home, I’m strictly BSD. Moms and Grandmothers aside, to take MiG’s challenge of getting avg people off the street to install both Windows and Linux and see who complains more and see how it goes I’d like to see the results of that.

While my mother might be able to navigate her way around a Linux type GUI after the OS was installed and setup, there is no way in hell she would be able to install it herself. Do you still have to go through the partition setup and choose /usr, /var and / sizing like you do with most *nix installs Ive done over the years? This includes SunOS, Solaris (on native Sun hardware and Intel hardware), BSDi and even a SCO install or two.

90% of the people I deal with daily can hardly navigate Windows, never mind sitting them down in front of Ubuntu or Mandrake or .

I run into many people who reinstall Windows and find after the install the drivers are not there for network cards, sound cards, video cards etc.

Even though they are Windows “approved hardware” and those devices are built into
most motherboards today, drivers are not included in a basic install of Windows in many cases.

Its been my experience that once you point that out to people why their network card is not working most will ask where do they get drivers for it? Do you have the motherboard driver disk that came with your computer? No? Well then your SOL unless you can download them.

What do you do if it is Linux “approved hardware” but the drivers are not in the kernel in an OOTB install? Would your avg person know what to do then?

I have used Linux with a desktop gui in the past as well as FreeBSD extensively and as Mig so eloquently put it, I still have to ‘bust out the command line’ to do certain things, with either OS.

As an aside and one last item, in the last month, I know of 5 people that have all bought brand new 20" iMac’s. 1 was already a Mac user, but the other 4 were all beige box PC people. How many people do I know that just bought a new machine and use Linux on them? 0. How many bought new machines with Windows? Who cares…

No matter how you cut it Linux still requires a certain level of computer knowledge that your basic Windows users dont have, then again that can probably be said for mac users too in some cases.

Well it may have become a verb for you Mig, but in all honesty does anyone else use it? I’m sure you get a kick out of it since you and hoshq used to love to go at it from time to time, but that was a while back and I’ll bet there are people here now who don’t understand the reference.


I run a Toshiba laptop w ATI graphics and an Atheros wireless, Whorey Hedgehog was the only distro that found every single thing without so much as a blink. Same thing with those cheap Foxcon 761 boards and Ubuntu, it’s the best ‘desktop’ distro I’ve seen yet.
But I’m someone who struggled thru every incarnation of the Amiga OS long before Google, so I agree with MiG on this one. I’ve met hundreds of people who are completely illiterate (not just functionally) who have a Windows box and expect to be able to use it. Not ready  for prime-time yet.

BTW: London Drugs is selling Macs at exactly the same price as is online. They only had one Solo version and it was ‘spoken for’ but not picked up yet so I came home empty handed. I’m supposed to call Tuesday and they’ll send it if it’s still there. Also discovered it comes with 2 install CDs, I wondered  if you got those or a Tiger CD and driver set…

ADD: my laptops an A70 P4 3.0 GHz, if I put it on my lap you’ll smell the bacon cooking after ten minutes. But you’ll have to use the bloody touchpad too, so they only time I ever do that is in the field. 95% of the time it’s on a table or desk with a USB mouse attached.