Hell No, She won't go! Then again, maybe its yes, or

The chaos that suddenly seems to have enveloped the NDP of late will seemingly continue on for a while yet.

After yesterday’s blistering denouncement of Carole James leadership by Jenny Kwan, many awaited Thursday morning and the first comments from the James camp on her leadership situation.

That reaction came today and as far as the NDP leader is concerned she will stay the course and continue to fight for her leadership, setting the stage for a confrontation within the party, which some suggest could very well fracture the party.

(from the blog a town called podunk, click on the link below to see the entire item atowncalledpodunk.blogspot.com/2 … maybe.html)

I liked this bit from Vaughan Palmer’s article (linked in the blog), illustrating that the NDP of days gone by is alive and well in the person of Moe Sihota:

She wasn’t done. Kwan then attacked party president Moe Sihota for the backroom deal that provided him with a salary, funded by the labour movement. But even that provided a springboard for her to launch another salvo at the leader.

“Carole James knew about this deal and did not intervene,” she accused. “In fact, the NDP caucus was not even informed of this arrangement until recently … I feel very strongly that we must demonstrate the highest of ethical standards in order to earn the trust of the electorate. The backroom deal struck for the president of the party has no place in today’s NDP.”

I would like to preface my comments by stating that I can not stand Gordon Campbell. However, our soon-to-be Ex-Premiere had the good sense to put the good of his party before his own needs and wants. The Liberals will be able to regroup under a new leader and distance themselves from the failed policies of Campbell (lying about the HST).
Contrast this with the NDP that continues to fracture and shatter before our eyes. James should do the right thing and put the needs of the NDP first. In my opinion James should resign and allow someone else to step up and lead. I know the Liberals hope like Hell that James sticks around. The NDP should show some moxie and push James out the door.

Sad as I am to say this, I am beginning to wonder if the BC NDP are capable of forming government. When we look at the NDP’s best hours, I think of the 60’s and 70’s and see Tommy Douglas, Ed Broadbent, David Lewis. I know other provinces have had some success with NDP governments, (and I am not saying that Barrett and Harcourt were flops) but maybe the NDP serves best in a three party system where it can work as the social conscience of the governing body.

Maybe the right wing of the NDP and the left wing of the neo-con Liberals need to form an actual Liberal party. They can keep the neo-cons honest with the threat of a relatively friendly to business party with a chance of winning. They can steal and then implement policies of the NDP. (As long as good legislation is implemented who cares who puts it in.) And during minority governments, which are more likely to happen, with three parties, the NDP will actually have some power to insist on progressive change.

As long as people like Gordon Campbell and the people who support him - both in and, more frighteningly, out of government, are not ruling this province I will be a happy man. Gordon Campbell’s main claim to fame is similar to a famous person of the past. He got “the trains to run on time”. Maybe Campbell got the economy moving (and even that’s debatable) but at what expense to most other areas of society.

I will continue to support the NDP, but under my three party scenario I will not be devastated if they lose. I do not trust any of the current candidates to replace Campbell, doing anything differently than what has transpired over the past 10 years. I can not see how anybody can actually say that they deserve another chance. But unless the NDP smarten up somehow, it is sure to happen.

[quote=“DWhite”]Sad as I am to say this, I am beginning to wonder if the BC NDP are capable of forming government.
[/quote]

I will agree with your dire and accurate assessment of the BC NDP if they stick with James through to 2013. However, I think the NDP has a shot at governing if they can mobilize under new, inspired leadership. James is doing whatever she can to crush dissent. More MLAs need to have the courage to align themselves with Kwan. Interesting times indeed. :smile:

I just don’t get it why she won’t take a hike…
Many good points in this thread… As much as I can’t stand the Liberals, NDP does not have a chance under James’ Leadership…

how do you lose an election when your in the lead according to the polls? you have ingrats like Jenny and Moe try to take down a leader that is trying to appease the moderate voter, ie the ones that don’t have party affiliations, the ones that believe in democratic process, Moe is back by the Unions as evidenced by his letter that Palmer got a few weeks ago stating that the NDP should get involved in recall with the help of unions, but don’t let anyone know because parties are not allowed to get involved with recall, but then that is Moe being Moe afterall Moe was one of the ones that basically stabbed Mike Harcourt in the back when Mike took the hit for the NDP bingogate, and as for Jenny well she thinks she can win the leadership, but hey who cares thanks to those two and the other disgruntled caucas members the Liberals will be back in power, so thank you Moe and Jenny

[quote=“Jabber63”]how do you lose an election when your in the lead according to the polls? you have ingrats like Jenny and Moe try to take down a leader that is trying to appease the moderate voter…
… but hey who cares thanks to those two and the other disgruntled caucas members the Liberals will be back in power, so thank you Moe and Jenny[/quote]

There are good reasons for being against Moe, he may be an ingrat, and calling him a backstabber may not be far off the mark either, but I don’t understand why you continue to lump him together with Jenny Kwan. Moe as party president gives every appearance of being a key backer of Carole James.

Supporting Bob Simpson, Jenny Kwan and those sympathetic to their call for new leadership does not appear to be on his agenda at all, although considering his opportunistic past, notably during the Harcourt era, there may be something else going on. Perhaps you have some evidence you could share that he is in league with Jenny Kwan.

As for the NDP being ahead in the polls, an election is a long ways off. According to the most recent poll the NDP under Carole James is ahead of the effectively leaderless Liberals by only about 5%’; not a very strong showing.

Listening to Mike De Jong, his strategy if elected to replace Campbell would be to scrap the HST, which he characterises as something they thought was a thoroughbred, but turned out to be a pig, which he adds is not going to look any better with lipstick on it. He’s an accomplished standup comedian, and will no doubt have many other lines and quips to put a friendlier face on the Liberal party. The NDP’s modest lead under Carole James could quickly disappear.

[quote=“BTravenn”]

[quote=“Jabber63”]how do you lose an election when your in the lead according to the polls? you have ingrats like Jenny and Moe try to take down a leader that is trying to appease the moderate voter…
… but hey who cares thanks to those two and the other disgruntled caucas members the Liberals will be back in power, so thank you Moe and Jenny[/quote]

There are good reasons for being against Moe, he may be an ingrat, and calling him a backstabber may not be far off the mark either, but I don’t understand why you continue to lump him together with Jenny Kwan. Moe as party president gives every appearance of being a key backer of Carole James.

Supporting Bob Simpson, Jenny Kwan and those sympathetic to their call for new leadership does not appear to be on his agenda at all, although considering his opportunistic past, notably during the Harcourt era, there may be something else going on. Perhaps you have some evidence you could share that he is in league with Jenny Kwan.

As for the NDP being ahead in the polls, an election is a long ways off. According to the most recent poll the NDP under Carole James is ahead of the effectively leaderless Liberals by only about 5%’; not a very strong showing.

Listening to Mike De Jong, his strategy if elected to replace Campbell would be to scrap the HST, which he characterises as something they thought was a thoroughbred, but turned out to be a pig, which he adds is not going to look any better with lipstick on it. He’s an accomplished standup comedian, and will no doubt have many other lines and quips to put a friendlier face on the Liberal party. The NDP’s modest lead under Carole James could quickly disappear.[/quote]

I understand why the right-wing voters are attacking Kwan and backing Carole James. I would do the same thing in their place. The right-wing crowd is deploying an effective spin campaign. Of course the Liberals want Carole James to remain on as leader as they know that they have a very good shot at winning in 2013 if she is in command of the BC NDP. The last thing the neocons want is to have a vibrant leader take over the NDP reins of power.

You know I understand to a degree the uncomfortable feeling that some in the NDP may have with their leader at the moment, but what I don’t get is the timing of this attempted putsch.

She did receive an 84 per cent endorsement not more than two weeks ago, certainly not the kind of 99.9 percent of the old Soviet era of leadership reverence, but still clearly a majority.

What’s even more remarkable by the actions of the dissident faction of the moment, is it has managed to take the incompetence and drama of the Campbell exit (whenever it actually takes place) right off the front pages and television newscasts of the province, a gift I’m sure the Liberals are most thankful for.

Instead of letting that mess play out for the next four months, each day another reminder of the arrogance of the last few years of the Liberals, the NDP by setting their own house ablaze have knocked all that Liberal controversy out of the view of British Columbians.

Now personally I imagine that it would have been a hard road ahead for Ms. James anyways, she had yet to really resonate with the would be voters, let their only real winning issue of late the HST debate get hijack by Bill Vander Zalm of all people and clearly is the leader of a party that has way too many factions for its own good.

Still with all that, wouldn’t it have been better to show a sense of cohesion at least until you know who the party will be running against whenever the next election comes around?

I mean the party at the moment appears to be panicking at the thought of ghosts, let alone any actual candidate, imagine the image the Liberals will provide should they actually find a leader that might be acceptable to the province, someone who has managed to stay away from the latest round of Liberal implosion oh lets say a Carole Taylor or even a Christy Clark just to throw two names out, both had clear issues with the Premier it seems, stepped aside, bided their time and now would most likely be the favourites to replace the guy.

Counter that with the image the NDP presents these days and yikes, it’s most likely another four years of opposition when the election comes around.

Even worse, if the current drama continues in its current state of animosity, it could fracture the party into two camps, leaving the thirteen dissidents perhaps cast out, maybe to form their own party in the vision of the NDP they prefer, maybe a more labour oriented option, but one which would dilute the voting pool yet again, leaving the Liberals the opportunity to capitalize on that vote split.

Though the one interesting aspect of this that I read recently was the idea that the left leaning Liberals and those unhappy with the current NDP direction could find common ground in their own party, not likely but an intriguing prospect.

The better strategy for the NDP in my opinion anyways for what its worth and as someone who is more of an Independent minded voter, (ie: no party affiliation of name, I take stock of the candidates at the time of the election and vote accordingly) would have been to wait out the Liberals to see who they have to offer up.

Concentrate on the issues that currently have led to their difficulties and take back the momentum that has been lost to the likes of Mr. Vander Zalm and such.

If that 16 per cent that didn’t support James two weeks ago want to remove her, they need to build up more support rather than the burn down the house approach that seems to be under way.

I imagine when the Liberals pick their new leader they will receive a bounce back in the polls, that would have been the time to launch the attempted leadership review, as the numbers in the polling and the faults that the dissidents believe Ms. James has would be most vulnerable.

The clumsy attempt at the moment is certainly detracting from the thought that the NDP is ready to govern the province, considering the turmoil that the Liberals were in but a short two weeks ago, they probably deserved at least a four year term in opposition to gain a little insight into the wrong paths they too.

But judging by the mess the NDP created for themselves these last few days, the confidence of the voter that they should get the government back is probably dropping pretty quickly.

They may very well be laying the groundwork here to Snatch defeat from what probably should have been a victory.

At any rate a most fascinating little bit of drama for both parties these days, but sheesh anybody keeping their eye on the ball for the folks that actually live in the province and fund the big show in Victoria.

Some interesting columns from Michael Smyth and Vaughn Palmer provide some good insight on all of this.

theprovince.com/news/Michael … story.html

vancouversun.com/news/Willia … story.html

timescolonist.com/news/Mutin … story.html

[quote=“hitest”]
I understand why the right-wing voters are attacking Kwan and backing Carole James. I would do the same thing in their place. The right-wing crowd is deploying an effective spin campaign. Of course the Liberals want Carole James to remain on as leader as they know that they have a very good shot at winning in 2013 if she is in command of the BC NDP. The last thing the neocons want is to have a vibrant leader take over the NDP reins of power.[/quote]

Hence perhaps the muddled up account of who in the party supports or doesn’t support who. I read in a blog that a few weeks ago Moe Sihota, in his capacity as party president sent an email to party members encouraging support for Carole James. That he receives a salary from organized labour under a secret deal which James supported but did not disclose to the caucus (as Kwan reported in her stinging critique of Ms James’ leadership) would further suggest that Moe is firmly a James supporter (and vice versa).

The story seems to highlight a long standing issue within the NDP, that being its relationship with organized labour. I forget the details but recall that the unions have a special status in the party constitution, a legacy from when the NDP replaced the CCF decades ago. I think that there are a great many of us who would feel more comfortable with the NDP (even if we vote for them at times) if their formal links with organized labour were severed.

I would wonder if Jenny Kwan, Bob Simpson and others might constitute a block or point of view within the party that wants to operate as a centre-left party that is independent of organized labour. Put another way, the issue may not be just about Carole James and her leadership and apparent inability to connect with voters, including those that support the NDP’s cause.

Perhaps the party needs to sit as two separate caucuses while these and other fundamental issues are addressed, one under Carole James and the current NDP central establishment affiliated with labour, and the other a baker’s dozen of NDP MLAs, enjoying the support of their constituency associations it seems, sitting as a separate caucus, representing the constituents in a more independent manner.

[quote=“ThePodunkian”]You know I understand to a degree the uncomfortable feeling that some in the NDP may have with their leader at the moment, but what I don’t get is the timing of this attempted putsch.

She did receive an 84 per cent endorsement not more than two weeks ago, certainly not the kind of 99.9 percent of the old Soviet era of leadership reverence, but still clearly a majority.

What’s even more remarkable by the actions of the dissident faction of the moment, is it has managed to take the incompetence and drama of the Campbell exit (whenever it actually takes place) right off the front pages and television newscasts of the province, a gift I’m sure the Liberals are most thankful for. …

If that 16 per cent that didn’t support James two weeks ago want to remove her, they need to build up more support rather than the burn down the house approach that seems to be under way.

… The clumsy attempt at the moment is certainly detracting from the thought that the NDP is ready to govern the province, considering the turmoil that the Liberals were in but a short two weeks ago, they probably deserved at least a four year term in opposition to gain a little insight into the wrong paths they too.
[/quote]

I think the problem with the 84% endorsement a few weeks ago, and why it should not be regarded as that momentous, is that it came from most everyone within the party that seems to count other than the MLA’s who are actually elected by the public at large and are most in touch with what constituents, whether party members or not, think about the future direction of the province.

The MLAs, as I recall, were mere bystanders at the re-anointment of Ms James as the leader, their preferences being indicated not by having votes to cast, but whether or not they wore certain scarfs, apparently endorsing the concept that after losing two elections under Ms James they may be third time lucky.

I suspect that if one went through the roster of who voted at the governing council meeting (if that is what the party presidium is called) one would find a rather uninspiring list of people, some of whom were last heard from making concession speeches after NDP electoral defeats long ago.

If it comes down to a comparison between how party apparatchniks and bosses voted a few weeks ago, and the contrary views of sitting MLAs, as an independent I am far more interested in what the latter have to say.

As for who dominates the news cycle these days, I think that Campbell’s exit is already rather old news, and would have been whether the NDP was going through its current turmoils or not. People are so tired of Campbell that they are ready to treat him as being gone or irrelevant whether he still occupies an office in Victoria or not.

I don’t think that this is an inopportune occasion for the NDP to be airing dirty laundry and talking about leadership and hopefully more fundamental issues about the party structure and vision. The Liberal party leadership race, which otherwise would dominate media coverage and perhaps even generate some interest and perhaps even some excitement from some, will be relegated to farther down on the news readers’ topics for the day.

A better situation for the Liberals would be for issues within the NDP to be not brought to a head, such that its’ leadership problems and doubts are allowed to fester for many months to come, thus providing an opportunity for whoever replaces Campbell to draw more favourable comparisons between a party with a new leader and one that really needs to find a successor to Ms James, who I am sure when she is gone will be forgotten very quickly.

Gary Coons will have the support of many MLAs if he gets fired on Sunday.

The Globe and Mail

[quote=“BTravenn”]

I am totally confused by who is backing whom. Are the dissidents upset at James as a failure in two elections and a leader who hasn’t inspired the public? Are they upset at the directions the party is heading or not heading? Is this a battle between big labor support and a more conciliatory approach to business? Is it about the old generation vs a newer one?

Unless we are party members we can only begin to speculate, but my problem with James as leader goes back to the last election. In 2005, she led the NDP from two seats to their usual vote count. That was a plus. Despite the hated cutbacks of 2001, she still had baggage from the Clark era so it wasn’t really surprising that the Liberals won.

However, 2009 was winnable. She didn’t win. At that time she should have resigned and allowed the party to hash out all its differences in a leadership convention. There is precedent here. I remember as a kid watching my father as election results came in, but the first BC election that meant anything to me was 1969. The highly respected Tom Berger had just taken over from long time NDP leader Bob Strachan.

from Wikipedia

Described as a “Young Turk” and “young man in a hurry”, Berger challenged long-time BC CCF/NDP leader Robert Strachan for the party leadership in 1967. Strachan defeated Berger but, sensing the winds of change, resigned in 1969. Berger defeated another young MLA, Dave Barrett to win the leadership convention and was widely expected to lead the NDP to its first ever general election victory. Social Credit Premier W.A.C. Bennett called an early snap election and, instead of victory, Berger’s NDP lost four seats. He quickly resigned and was succeeded by Dave Barrett. (I have a vivid memory of a very sad father slumped in his chair.)

But notice some of the similarities. One leader senses the winds of change and resigns. (Is James aware of a sense of change?) Another leader takes over with expectations to win and doesn’t so he resigns. (Should James have resigned in 2009?) The reason for the lose was the calling of a snap election. (The current Liberals could easily do this after their convention.)

The NDP have to hash this out at a convention. Quickly.

[quote=“DWhite”]
The NDP have to hash this out at a convention. Quickly.[/quote]

Agreed. The NDP needs to rally behind effective leadership. I hope that James tenders her resignation on Sunday and calls for a leadership convention. if that does not happen she may be forced out by a caucus revolt. I am very curious to see what happens!

the unions get a certain percentage of delegates of any convention for the NDP especially for the leadership contest, I think it is around 20%, Carole James has tried to get rid of that a few years ago didn’t succeed, for she is trying to modernize the party and cater to the voters that don’t always vote Liberal or NDP, ie the moderate independent voter, Jenny hates that and Moe well like I said I wouldn’t trust him as far as that knife he constantly carries

Where do you get this disinformation from, that Jenny Kwan “hates” efforts to reduce labour’s influence?

Labour reps sit on the NDP executive. The provincial council includes the executive, other labour reps, delegates from the constituency associations, and a few others. The NDP constitution is on their web site, by the way.

Labour supports Carole James. Contrary to your earlier assertions, so does Moe Sihota, who is on labour’s payroll. That back room deal between James, Sihota and labour is one reason why Jenny Kwan is calling for change. The 16% that voted at the provincial council meeting for a leadership convention include constituency delegates that support Jenny Kwan and the rest of the baker’s dozen. Labour did not vote against James’ leadership.

[quote=“hitest”]
I understand why the right-wing voters are attacking Kwan and backing Carole James. I would do the same thing in their place. The right-wing crowd is deploying an effective spin campaign. …[/quote]

The Tyee has an excellent summary of each of the 13 dissidents. thetyee.ca/News/2010/12/04/13NDPDissidents/

Here’s what they have about Gary.

Gary Coons, North Coast

“Nobody can take away from what Gary’s done on ferries,” said Simpson, referring to Coons’ critic work. “He’s done a very, very good job on a file that’s important to coastal communities.”

A retired teacher, Coons worked for the Prince Rupert School District for 27 years teaching mathematics and special education.

Simpson said he is a “salt of the earth” person who would only be involved in something like the group criticizing James if he felt strongly about it.

Others characterize Coons as a moderate, a solid member of the legislature and no ideologue.