You don’t think that healthy people are more prosperous? Or you don’t think vaccines make people healthy? Or you don’t think prosperous people have fewer children?
I’m not sure I get your objection – can you point out which of those you don’t accept?
I think it’s a straightforward argument.
If you invest a ton of resources into a child, and he dies before he is 7 or 8 years old, you’ve lost quite a bit. You tend to hedge your bets by having even more children. And if those children aren’t healthy, then you spend more resources taking care of them.
Healthy populations can prosper much easier than sick populations. And prosperous populations, in turn, have fewer children.
I think that’s been the demographic story of North America in the past few generations, hasn’t it?
You don’t think that healthy people are more prosperous? Or you don’t think vaccines make people healthy? Or you don’t think prosperous people have fewer children?
I’m not sure I get your objection – can you point out which of those you don’t accept?[/quote]
Vaccines do not make people healthy or prosperous. Vaccines merely give you immunity against specific diseases.
Well, I guess that’s the point we disagree on. Vaccines do make you healthy, by preventing disease. If you don’t agree with that, then there’s really no point in arguing it, is there?
But anyway, my point wasn’t to bring up an argument about whether preventing a disease makes one healthy or not, because I think that’s a given.
My point was to bring up the fact that Bill Gates speaks the truth on the anti-vax movement. That it has caused great harm, and in hindsight, it looks like all those conspiracy guys were duped by Wakefield. And they spread a meme that was very harmful.
Well, I guess that’s the point we disagree on. Vaccines do make you healthy, by preventing disease. If you don’t agree with that, then there’s really no point in arguing it, is there?
But anyway, my point wasn’t to bring up an argument about whether preventing a disease makes one healthy or not, because I think that’s a given.
My point was to bring up the fact that Bill Gates speaks the truth on the anti-vax movement. That it has caused great harm, and in hindsight, it looks like all those conspiracy guys were duped by Wakefield. And they spread a meme that was very harmful.[/quote]
I think it is a far stretch that saving 4.5 million children per year will somehow reduce population growth.
It is my view that if you do not vaccinate your child youre a moron incapable of raising a child and therefore should have the child removed from your care. Same goes for pets. Way to spread disease asshats.
So tell me since this “population dynamic” science is apparently beyond me, what percentage will the population growth decrease be in the next ten years; and the following ten years, and the following ten years after. And could someone elaborate on the prosperity this vaccine will bring to the less fortunate? I mean to bring these people up to our standard of living/prosperity. Or at least until there is enough prosperity so they do not reproduce as much. And how much prosperity must they have before we can see a difference in pop growth?
I think the idea is noble and worthy. I just hate when they make it sound like it is going to save the world, stop wars, feed the hungry, bring stability to the world, prosperity for everyone, etc. It’s just a vaccine that can save lives!!!
The article describes an oft repeating phenomenon where programs of better health, wealth and vaccinations lead to much higher populations. In poor or pre-industrial economies, couples have 5 or more children. High infant and child mortality ensures that only 2 - 3 survive long enough to have children of their own, and population rises slowly.
Better health programs that come with prosperity tend to drastically reduce infant and child mortality. Now 5 - 6 children are surving to have 5 - 6 children of their own. Adults are also living slightly longer. At this stage populations balloon. It takes a generation or more family size to catch up with new mortality patterns.
Onlyafter 50 years or so do populations begin to stabilize, with smaller family sizes becoming the norm. Social engineering projects that attempt to hasten the arrival of this stage have mixed results (Judge for yourself the success of China’s one child policy , or India’s program of forced sterilization.)
You probably weren’t around HTMF at the time, Dex, but a few prominent HTMF members insisted that vaccines really did cause Autism. They claimed it was a global conspiracy, by Big Pharma, and that anybody who wasn’t a true believer was in on the conspiracy. Turns out the complete opposite was true. The anti-vaxers were actually helping Wakefield, who had a huge financial interest in fabricating his work.
Not a peep out of them now that the Wakefield MMR=Autism thing has been thoroughly debunked. I guess the Illuminati shut them up?
Sums up the North American experience nicely. Previous generations had huge families. How many brothers and sisters do your parents or grandparents have? How many died young?
A large part of the reason mortality has increased is vaccination.
But you’re arguing with someone who thinks that “Vaccines do not make people healthy …” so I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere.
But you’re arguing with someone who thinks that “Vaccines do not make people healthy …” so I don’t think you’re going to get anywhere.[/quote]
If you are already “unhealthy” from a disease a vaccine for that disease will not work. A vaccine does not cure people who are already infected with the disease. As a side note, you can still contract and succumb to the disease after you have received the vaccine. In other words, if you are already unhealthy from a disease a vaccine will not make you healthy. To say vaccine’s make people healthy is false and helps confuse people of the nature of what vaccines are and can do. You could say vaccines can help keep people healthy, which would be more appropriate and better descriptive. In conclusion, vaccines do not make people healthy.
You probably weren’t around HTMF at the time, Dex, but a few prominent HTMF members insisted that vaccines really did cause Autism. They claimed it was a global conspiracy, by Big Pharma, and that anybody who wasn’t a true believer was in on the conspiracy. Turns out the complete opposite was true. The anti-vaxers were actually helping Wakefield, who had a huge financial interest in fabricating his work.
Not a peep out of them now that the Wakefield MMR=Autism thing has been thoroughly debunked. I guess the Illuminati shut them up?[/quote]
I think people’s skepticism of the medical industry, including pharmas, helped this anti-vaxer community thrive. One must admit that there is much ignorance in the general pop on both sides when it involves vaccines and the medical industry does little to educate the public. When you see cases where people are crammed into shopping malls to get a vaccine for a flu virus that kills people you have to question why people would do this and why medical professionals would allowed this to happen. People’s risk of exposure to the flu virus which could lead to death were increased enormously and the medical professionals/industry did not intervene. According to jesus, even his friends pregnant wife and baby were hospitalized because of this. They allowed mass crowds to line up while they gave inoculations one by one; aren’t these people here to protect your health? So in conclusion, I do not focus too much on the ignorance of the anti-vaxers because I believe the pro-vaxers can be just as ignorant.
