The big BC Liberals suck and NDP suck thread

[quote=“eccentric”]
Don’t forget the classic Adrian Dix Hawaii DUI.[/quote]

Yeah, that was hilarious.

didnt forget about Campbell did mention him check my post

I don’t like being lied to. If the Liberals intended to introduce the HST in 2009 they should have informed us about it during the election campaign. The HST was subsequently crushed in a referendum and the Liberals have yet to respect the will of the people. I remember Clark hinting at an early Fall election, but then a quick retraction after the referendum results were announced.[/quote]

The 45.27% of British Columbians who voted to keep HST would HARDLY say they were CRUSHED by the 54.73% that voted it out. Take about blowing that up to suit your argument!

A few more months and HST would have stayed…the HST was good for BC…was it perfect? Absolutely not…but it certainly is a MUCH improved system than the PST.

Hey Mig

I tried to find this story on The Northern View website, but found no mention of it. Are you guys not covering local news anymore?

thenorthernview.com/eedition … 4070618429

If people can’t see the clear, massive ¢ in inflation from the HST’s introduction to now, I worry about people. The cost of food and other items have absolutely SOARED. I mean at least 1.50 for some items, some more. Overall, over the course of groceries, take out once in a while, coffees and other items the cost of living went way up.

So, I should be excluded from eating a Timmies sandwhich once in a while due to unsavory cost while the government rips money away from me AGAIN? Not bloody likely. Let industry guide itself. Stop taxing the consumer and citizen to help industry that can mostly stand on it’s own.

The voters in BC don’t agree with you. I think defeating something with 50+% is pretty good in BC politics, as some people are quite apathetic these days about referendums. For the sake of the Liberals I’ll bet you’re hoping that 50+% don’t show up on election day. :smile:

yes HST was added on more items then the PST but most of the things it was added too wouldn’t have affected the majority of the ppl, the only area that did affect ppl was putting it on the restaurants bills, but overall the HST was good for the ppl

do some simple math start with a $10 item from raw materials and apply 7% and then say a modest 25% markup, do that 3 times and then do the same thing without the 7% and see the difference to the consumer for products that have both gst and pst.

10 x 1.07 x 1.25= 13.38 13.38 x 1.07 x1.25 = 17.90 17.90 x 1.07x 1.25 = 23.94 now selling price to consumer is 23.94 x 1.12(gst +pst) = 26.81

now with HST

10 x 1.25 = 12.5 12.5 x 1.25 = 15.63 15.63 x 1.25 = 19.54 19.54 x 1.12(hst) = 21.88 gee a savings to the average consumer since the companies get the HST back most don’t include it in their markup price. and yes i did for 3 times since most goods touch hands around 2 to 3 times before it gets to the consumer.

simple way of showing it despite what Zalm and the NDP said about it. consumers came out the winners now we are back to the old pst in a few months so guess who are the losers consumer will be.

but a majority of those that voted did vote it out so now we are stuck with an archaic tax on goods

45% of British Columbians voted for the BC Liberals. More than 50% voted against them. Yet they get to rule.

So yeah. 54 % is a wide margin in BC politics.

[quote=“MiG”]

45% of British Columbians voted for the BC Liberals. More than 50% voted against them. Yet they get to rule.

So yeah. 54 % is a wide margin in BC politics.[/quote]

Not the same thing…there are MULTIPLE parties running for government, so of course the party that wins is most likely going to have under 50% support (especially considering the left-right divide between BC’s two biggest parties) but the HST question had only two options…trying to compare the two situations is just not correct in this regard.

[quote=“hitest”]

The voters in BC don’t agree with you. I think defeating something with 50+% is pretty good in BC politics, as some people are quite apathetic these days about referendums. For the sake of the Liberals I’ll bet you’re hoping that 50+% don’t show up on election day. :smile:[/quote]

I never argued that the majority of BC voters don’t agree with me and I obviously know that considering HST was defeated…but what I will say is that clearly the majority made the wrong choice…but that is my opinion.

Also, not every person that voted out the HST voted for the NDP…there are BC Liberal supporters who voted the tax out as well…and vice versa with NDP supporters voting to keep it.

I am sure a large portion of people who voted the HST out were using their vote as a way to get back at how it was brought in, without really educating themselves on the benefits the HST provided out province…and fair enough in that regard…people can vote how ever they want to with whatever voting intention they want.

Granted. But, the referendum results were harsh enough to stop Premier Clark in her tracks. Up until the HST referendum results announcement she was talking about a Fall election. Right after the referendum results she suddenly changed direction and declared that her focus was jobs, jobs. She is smart and realized that calling an election then would have been political suicide. Also, I do not think that the polls have shifted much in her favour since the referendum. I don’t think that Clark has a good chance of forming the government in May.
Am I writing Clark off? No. The election is not a sure thing for the NDP. But, this election really is the NDPs to lose.

^^
I agree…I will say that it is highly likely the NDP will form the government in May…and it is pretty much 99% certain the North Coast riding will once again be in the NDP’s hands…it will be nice to have the riding be on the side of the governing power for a change, which I guess (for me and other BC Liberals supporters) is the ONLY positive to take away from seeing the NDP form government again.

I will say though that BC Liberals have higher support now than they did 9 months ago, more than they did 6 months ago and more than they did 3 months ago…will they be able to chip away to truly threaten the NDP…no…NDP will win…I will be surprised if they do not win.

Doesn’t mean I am happy about that though. The thoughts of the NDP getting their hands on this province again with all of the huge resource based projects on the table, makes me VERY nervous.

[quote=“bthedog”]^^
The thoughts of the NDP getting their hands on this province again with all of the huge resource based projects on the table, makes me VERY nervous.[/quote]

I don’t see a huge difference between the two parties on resource based projects.

As discussed on the other thread the BC Liberals imposed a moratorium (“permanent” no less) on fracking in the “Sacred Headwaters”. The NDP agrees with that, which is probably why there has not been much publicity.

Premier Clark is dispatching community affairs minister Bennett up here to discuss the “opportunities, benefits and challenges” of building LNG export facilities, essentially to clear up any misunderstandings before proceeding.

The NDP has been waffling, saying that they have not opposed LNG plants. At some point the NDP will have to clarify their position and address the objections of numerous environmental groups that exporting LNG means supporting a “Dirty Energy Policy” (a premise the Liberals would reject). That will likely create a few awkward moments and some throat clearing in NDP ranks, but they’ll come out in favour of LNG.

The differences on Enbridge are more in approach than in substance. The Liberals have set conditions for Enbridge that will not be met, and have applied an economic analysis to the effect that the risks far outweigh the rewards. The NDP has simply said that they oppose the project just because. Both approaches take us to much the same place.

Clark has pointed out that regardless of the decision of the joint review panel (which comes across as federal rather than ‘joint’) the province has the ability to stop the project. She has a check list of provincial powers. Dix no doubt has the same list, although being a details guy he has probably made more generous use of a highlighter and added some marginal notations.

Enbridge and the federal Conservatives seem to think that provincial concerns will not stand in the way. That seems to rankle Clark - those are the vibes I get from her public statements - while Dix is cooler about the situation. Of course, it was Clark not Dix who had to be escorted out a side door of the Alberta premier’s office by her security detail lest she be attacked by Big Oil supporters. I suspect that if there was a vote for a creeps of the year award Clark and Dix would vote the same way as most of the rest of us.

So who then has the final say on Enbridge, regardless of what the JPR concludes (which we know will be in favour of the project)…is it Canada or BC that gets the say?

Can the federal government push this through with the provincial government and BC residents opposed? Can anything be done to stop it outside of a blockade?

Will we essentially be forced to our knees by the rest of Canada? Support is high for this project in every province except for BC…so I wonder if the weight and pressure from the other provinces will force our hand.

Exactly who has jurisdiction and who will ultimately decide what happens…does the federal government overrule the provincial government if they disagree?

[quote=“bthedog”]So who then has the final say on Enbridge, regardless of what the JPR concludes (which we know will be in favour of the project)…is it Canada or BC that gets the say?

Can the federal government push this through with the provincial government and BC residents opposed? Can anything be done to stop it outside of a blockade?

Will we essentially be forced to our knees by the rest of Canada? Support is high for this project in every province except for BC…so I wonder if the weight and pressure from the other provinces will force our hand.

Exactly who has jurisdiction and who will ultimately decide what happens…does the federal government overrule the provincial government if they disagree?[/quote]

Those are all good questions and well put. There is no final say. The project will not be pushed through against our objections, and we won’t be forced to our knees or outvoted by the other provinces, or overruled by the feds.

The term “joint review panel” causes some confusion by giving the impression of a federal-provincial review. That sometimes happens when the two governments merge their environmental review processes, for instance when considering mining applications. That’s not the case here. This is joint between the National Energy Board and the federal minister of the environment. A developer cannot transport oil or gas between provinces or export it without NEB approval.

However, NEB approval does not give permission to construct facilities on provincial Crown land, cross provincial highways, or ignore other provincial laws and regulations. That is why premier Clark has said that she has a list of about twenty or so provincial powers that can be used to block Enbridge.

Her starting point was not outright rejection of the project. Her approach has been that the government welcomes investment but all proposals have to be considered according to their net benefits. If the costs/risks outweight the benefits it’s no-go. That is effectively where the Clark government has ended up. Putting out a welcome mat does mean giving a blank cheque.

If governments appear to be anti-industry or arbitrary in their dealings with industry, they risk discouraging investment, including in areas that we probably don’t have a problem with (LNG being a case in point). That is essentially what happened in the BC mining industry under the last NDP government: investment capital fled BC, much of it to the Third World. It took a concerted effort to revive confidence in BC as a jurisidiction that welcomes investment.

On Enbridge, Clark and Dix have taken different roads to essentially the same position.

The worry that I have about Dix is that if he dances around taking a position on LNG good opportunities may go away. Letting us know where he and the NDP stand on building LNG facilities on the North Coast would help clarify how he would deal with industry generally.

on enbridge the federal government can impose it’s will to push it through, they have constitutional power for it if they say it is for the benefit of all canadians, but to use that provision would be stupid of them just to help alberta.

April 1 is still a few weeks away.

Section 91 of the constitution provides that Parliament can make laws “… for the Peace, Order and good Government of Canada in relation to all Matters …”, but then adds the following restriction “… not coming within the Classes of Subjects by this Act assigned exclusively to the Legislatures…”.

Public lands in the province (on which a pipeline would be built) fall within a class of subject assigned exclusively to the provincial legislature (see section 92.5).

The case law provides very narrow exceptions where those provincial powers can be infringed, but in practice that would only be during a national emergency for so long as it lasted. The courts have historically been very reluctant to say that an enumerated provincial power - public land, property and civil rights etc - can be infringed if Parliament considers that doing so would be in national interest. (If the subject matter does not fall within section 92 powers there is more scope for federal paramountcy.)

Perhaps Harper’s most rabid supporters think, or would like us to think, that the feds can shove this through if they want to, but I have no doubt that Clark and Dix have both been properly briefed and would defend the province’s jurisdiction regardless of which of them is premier.

I’m not suggesting, by the way, that you are a rabid Harper supporter. I would never be so discourteous.

Thank you for the thoughtful, informative post, BTravenn. I am hopeful that Clark and/or Dix will defend us.

¡WOW!
¡ Did this thread ever get hijacked!
I can’t quite figure out what the PST/GST and the HST has to do with Bill Belsey and his Chinese buddies!

Albertans think otherwise though. they think Ottawa can use the constitution to push it through even it is a vague at best

vancouversun.com/business/bc … story.html