Tazering

I do think that all police officers should be armed with guns.  It would be unreasonable to expect officers in city centers to go after gangsters without suitable armament.
However, I think that what we’re arguing for here is more training so that officers can make better quick decisions and determine when and if deadly force is needed,
If officers are better able to handle themselves in a fight and feel confident in their ability to restrain an individual then perhaps their first choice won’t be to zap the shit out of someone.

I don’t know what the RCMP’s use of force protocol is but it seems to me that something needs to be changed.  If and when tazers are ever used again it should ONLY be in a situation where either the officer, a member of the public or the perpetrator is being threatened or at an extreme risk in such a way that a quick response is necessary without trying to cause immediate death to the subject.  It should, however, be accepted that this may cause death in some rare instances.  In the case in which we are discussing the man was not at the time threatening to himself, the RCMP members or anyone else.  There were a boatload of options available to them other than the use of a tazer. 

It’s amazing to me that in a location such as YVR where there are thousands of people walking through there from every location on earth that there was not someone available that could have even tried to communicate with this man. 

You’re talking about YVR.
The last two times I went through there I got ripped off. A camera out of my cargo bag (why was the bag even opened?), and cash by the ESLs in the ‘security’ check. Today a guy from Seattle came to the shop to print some pics and told us he had his camera in his hands but it was too shitty to shoot any pics out the window. Said he got off in PG grabbed his duffel bag and ran outside to have a smoke.
The carton he brought from Seattle had been removed from his duffel bag, opened and 5 packs removed and the rest put back.
Something REALLY FISHY is going on at YVR on a regular basis.
I complained both times and so did this guy today, and WestJet had to eat the shit for thieves at YVR.

WestJet picked up the tab?  That is good PR for WestJet.  What happens when you complain to management at YVR when you have items stolen?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/west_yorkshire/7096456.stm

Thanks for the link, man.  Disturbing similarities are evident here.

Except that they don’t investigate themselves.

True. 
I heard on the radio on CBC today that Uncle Gordo was disturbed by what he saw on parts of the video tape ( apparently he didn’t have the time to sit through the full 1-3 minutes).  So there is going to be an investigation…a task force…blah, blah, blah…oh and the RCMP will be part of the investigation as well.  Bullshit.

With all due respect the lack of finding someone who could communicate with this individual is completely different than some items getting stolen out of a bag. All that they had to do was find anyone that could communicate with him. Hell, hand him a phone to someone that spoke his language.  Sure YVR baggage handlers maybe theives but the RCMP killed a guy without an attempt to communicate with him.

18 Canadian deaths due to Tasers in the last few years.

6 of them in BC.  33% of Taser deaths in BC, which only as 13% of the Canadian population.

Wow, you know why there are a lot more Taser deaths in BC than in the rest of Canada?  Because BC has a lot more RCMP officers than the rest of the country. 

Very sad that the RCMP is so rotten that they are now pulling out the “you civilians don’t understand” bullshit and still defending the airport death squad.

Very sad that the RCMP was once a first-rate police force, but now is a third rate collection of goons and people who defend the goons.

Very sad that nobody inside the RCMP is willing to stand up and say that something is seriously wrong.

Time to do to the RCMP what we did to the Airborne Regiment.

What did we do to the airborne?

Based on your phrasing, I’d imagine we disbanded them?

Don’t let the actions of a minority and some RCMP media liasons tarnish the reputations of over 16, 000 regular RCMP members across the country. The vast majority are professionals that go to work every day wanting to genuinely help people, catch bad guys and make a difference. The vast majority are as concerned about what happened at the airport as everyone else and want answers like everyone else. The vast majority would welcome civilian oversight because they have nothing to hide and would welcome an unbiased organisation saying they did nothing wrong.

Airborne was disbanded only after the whistleblower in the Somaiia Affair was jailed.  He was the only one prosecuted.  He was a Private.  He was First Nations.  No one further up the chain of command was charged with anything.  Any bets on what is going to happen in this situation?

[quote=“mrt”]
Don’t let the actions of a minority and some RCMP media liasons tarnish the reputations of over 16, 000 regular RCMP members across the country. The vast majority are professionals that go to work every day wanting to genuinely help people, catch bad guys and make a difference. The vast majority are as concerned about what happened at the airport as everyone else and want answers like everyone else. [/quote]

So MrT – what have you personally done to make sure that “a minority” of RCMP officers are no longer among your ranks? 

What have you personally done to support civilian oversight, and what have you personally done to express your opinion to your colleagues that the airport death squad were wrong?

That’s the problem here – a majority of RCMP officers are just fine, but that majority wants to defend the death squad.  I haven’t heard ANY RCMP officer say that the Airport Death Squad was wrong.  All I’ve heard is “you civilians don’t understand” and “we are the ones who know how to investigate.”

So let’s hear it, MrT, let’s hear you say that the Airport Death Squad should be kicked out of the RCMP and be charged with murder.  Otherwise you’re pretty much part of the problem, and you don’t know it.

The vast majority are standing behind their fellow officers, though, that’s the problem.  It’s an “us-versus-them” mentality now.

A man died after being confronted by police. During that confrontation the man was tasered and restrained by four RCMP members. Shortly after the man died. Was it the taser, was it from having four members on top of him, or was it a combination of factors which could included being on a long flight, having some kind of emotional breakdown, the police, the taser and perhaps a pre-existing medical condition? I don’t know, the only thing I have to base my opinion on is a ten minute video. I’ll wait to decide when all the facts are available to me.

You really think the four of them got together and brainstormed about how to kill someone? You really think calling them the “Airport Death Squad” is fitting?

Charter of Rights section 11 d) “Any person charged with an offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal.” Innocent until proven guilty in this country right? Even for cops right?

Should they be charged? Should they be charged with murder? Crown approves charges in the province so they can (and will) decide. I think INTENT, which is necessary for a murder charge, would be a hard thing to prove in this case. What about motive?

Did the police make mistakes? I’m sure if you asked the four of them they would say yes. Hindsight and arm chair quarterbacking are always 20/20.

I’m not defending them or condemning them, I was not there. This is a tragedy where an innocent man died. I hope some good and positive changes will come from this. I hope if there is blame to be laid, then it is and everyone involved (police, customs, airport, etc) take responsibility. I will leave it to the four current and ongoing investigations by four different agencies to determine the facts and assign blame.

What have I done personally? Execised patience in passing judgement in a case I have limited knowledge about. Continued to make sure I conduct myself in a professional manner and do a good job at work. Continued to learn from my mistakes so that I don’t make them again. Refined from slamming a national police force, its training, practices and individual members based on limited knowledge.

There are many unanswered questions regarding this incident. It is a complex situation that involves many different agencies. Why was Mr. Dziekanski left unassisted in customs, why wasn’t he helped by airport personnel, why couldn’t he and his mother find each other, why wasn’t the situation dealt with long before police were called, why did the police decide to respond the way they did, etc?

Overly simplifying the incident, labelling the responding members the “Airport Death Squad”, and assuming that all the police want to do is coverup what happened and develop an “us-versus-them mentality” is premature and foolish. I’m sure there are thousands of law enforcement members eagerly waiting to find out what happened and would be insulted and angry with a biased, half ass investigation.

Hello,

I rarely post here anymore since I moved from Rupert over two years ago, however after reading this thread I felt the urge to jump in and provide some information and knowledge to the uneducated. I often see the critisicm our officer’s receive and to see the comments of a former teacher of mine it has me very worried. I understand this video looks very disturbring for some, any taser video is disturbing, I myself have been tasered in training and let me assure you it hurts like hell. People naturally have a fear of electricity, it is imprinted into us the day we are born.

In this video I saw a scared, frightened, and unpredictable man. The police that responded surely would of been briefed of the scenario. My guessing is that the call would of been dispatched as "Disturbance at the airport, male screaming / yelling, and throwing chairs at the windows. For myself (a taser trained officer) I’m already thinking to myself that this will be a scenario where the CEW (proper name for taser) would be appropriate deeming the nature of the male’s behaivour allows it. Now I think this for a few reasons:

  1. I have been trained to use the CEW and know the effectiveness of it.
  2. The CEW is used by the RCMP to control highly agitated, combative / highly resistant individuals.
  3. The CEW will prevent anyone from being hurt or seriously injured.

Now onto the topic of “TASER DEATHS” provide the proof, provide the evidence that a CEW has actually killed anyone? To my knowledge I do not know of one proven incident where the CEW has killed anyone. There were many studies completed of reported taser deaths however they were always linked to either an extreme state of excited delirium (an ongoing study) or a drug overdose. Mental health issues as well have been contributing factors however let me assure you I myself have seen people in these states of mind and let me tell you that talking to them and trying to calm them down does simply not work. Now I’m not saying this male was in a state of excited delirum nor am I saying that this male was on any sort of drug (I believe they stated he wasn’t) however something was causing this male to act extremely unpredictable and irrational.

Now I will step back to the moment I arrive on scene, I see the male who is covered in sweat, held back, and distraught. I would already have my taser in my hand in case the situation calls for the use of it. I would be thinking of threat cues (How does the male look at me?) How do we know what these officer’s were thinking? Were you there? Don’t critisice the use of force until you either:

  1. Have been a police officer and have been in situations where you have dealt with highly agitated individuals who are extremely unpredictable.
  2. Are in these officer’s shoes and have seen through their eyes what they saw.

Now I’m not saying these officer’s were right, it’s an extreme tragedy that this male has died. I feel the same that all of you citizens feel, I want answers, and I have sympathy for this male and his family.

However do not jump to conclusions calling these RCMP murderes and that they should be charged. First off in order to lay a charge of murder you need to prove intent, do I believe these officer’s intended on killing this man? Of course not.

The CEW is used to prevent harm, people question why the officer’s didn’t just “tackle” the man. Why would we risk harming ourselves and potentially getting injured when we have a tool that has been proven non-lethal to use that will control the individual safely and execute an arrest.

Pepper spray would never of been used in a situation like this because it would have contaminated everyone involved. And let me assure you I would rather be tasered before ever being pepper sprayed again. Even if the police used pepper spray in this situation now there would be a video on youtube saying how mean the police were and why they didn’t just use a taser or tackle him.

Now I’m not saying either side is right, I will let the investigators do their job and determine who was right. I can’t go into these officer’s shoes and I can’t see through their eyes what they saw. Nor can you, so all of you that criticize these officer’s and call them murderes have a hard time earning my respect until you have either worn a CEW, are trained on such a tool, and / or have dealt with people in these situations. Do some research on your own, research the CEW, research why the police use it and the psychological impact it has. The CEW has saved 1000’s of lives and has been proven non-lethal by 100’s of studies.

Now to MiG’s reply to mrt’s post, if these officer’s are found to be excessive in their force then I will stand by that decision and fully support it. MiG you said to mrt “What are you doing to solve the problem?” Well let me tell you what I do to solve the problem, I put on my uniform everyday I work and do the best job I can do, I treat everyone equally and with respect, and I serve and protect the community I work in. However I work with the tools I have been provided and trained on. Unfortunately I have no control over who the RCMP hires, how we are trained, where we are posted, or how we are investigated. That lays in the hands of the upper management within the RCMP and I can only hope they do the proper job and investigate this situation entirely.

I feel for this family , this is great tragedy. However until the RCMP’s investigation is complete and the coroner’s inquest, stand tall, be a man, and have some respect for the women and men like myself that put on our uniforms everyday to make a difference to serve and protect in the communties across this great country.

Thank You

I must say those last two posts (mrt and mEtHaD) were very good.  Two of the best reads I’ve ever had on here. (grammar and spelling were good too  :imp:  )

I agree with their points as well.

Methad and MrT, you’re the guys I always think about when I say that I’m sure a majority of RCMP officers aren’t goons. 

Thanks for the great posts.

What do you do when you know about a person in the RCMP who is a trigger happy cowboy?

Who is doing the investigating?

I have a problem with this:

[quote]Were you there? Don’t critisice the use of force until you either:

  1. Have been a police officer and have been in situations where you have dealt with highly agitated individuals who are extremely unpredictable.
  2. Are in these officer’s shoes and have seen through their eyes what they saw.[/quote]

We’re in a democracy, and I’m sure you can infer from the outrage over this, that a majority of us don’t want police that act like this.

Don’t you care what civilians think?  Don’t you care that a lot of people think the RCMP acted improperly in this instance? 

You’re here to serve and protect us, not to tell us to not criticize.

Again, if that attitude is the majority opinion in the RCMP, it’s time to get rid of the RCMP.  Let’s hope it’s not.

We have a right, and an obligation to criticize you – if you don’t think that’s right, then you shouldn’t be a cop.

The idea that only RCMP can investigate RCMP, and only cops can criticize cops is EXACTLY the problem.  I hope you really don’t think that.

If you do, then you’ve pretty much made all my points.

Thank you for your well written post.  The problem is, Sir, that it seems to me that the CEW is not a non-lethal tool.  People are being killed by this tool. 
I really think that four officers should be able to safely take down one unarmed man and arrest him.  Mistakes were made here.  I understand that you’re trying to defend your fellow officers, but, your comments do not in any way dispel the outrage that we feel.

Let me rephrase that, I really don’t have a problem with anyone critisicing my work. I actually love it, the problem lies when uneducated people criticize our work and state improper and biased opinions. Critisicism is what makes us better police officers, if I wasn’t to listen to any one in society then I would be a dud and doing a poor job.

This job requires patience and empathy, we have to listen to members of society in order to do a good job.

We are here to serve and protect society and the people that live in it. If we weren’t listening to anyone inside of society what kind of job would we do? In small words we are here to serve and protect you; the public, and in order to do a good job we need to listen to your advice and criticism.

However when a person that has no knowledge about a certain use of force is critising our work and saying we are murderers it angers me. So in conclusion please criticize and please state your opinions. For this is what makes Canada such a great place to live in. However don’t post opinions that are uneducated and make what I stand for look completely useless and wrong.

None of us wanted that man to die, none of us wished harm on that man, and until the investigation is complete please let us do our job and have faith that there are good men and women that want to listen to you and do a good job.

Thanks.