ok let’s get real the naysayers are saying stuff about foreign workers getting most of the jobs based on the submission to the CEA in 2014, that was based on Alberta still going gang busters and there would be a shortage of workers in Canada, guess what, Alberta is in a recession, lots of Canadian workers available right now so less need to have foreign workers, will there be foreign workers during construction? of course there will be especially workers with certain specialties, hate to say this to Ms Rice but most big multi billion dollar jobs have foreign workers working on those projects
Robin Austin still trying to de-rail the Petronas deal in order to boost the prospects of an LNG terminal in his riding…
northcoastreview.blogspot.ca/201 … tions.html
Jennifer Rice is getting played by her own party here and doesn’t even know it. What a total fool!
[quote=“DWhite”]http://www.straight.com/news/488211/martyn-brown-christy-clarks-boon-big-oil
I am not trying to ruffle feathers but the above article is a real condemnation of the legislation including the speed in which it is being debated and passed.
So now I am wondering: At what point does a good deal for Prince Rupert trump a bad deal for the province. Or put another way. At what point does a bad deal become worse than no deal at all. (Many Americans are arguing that over the Iran/nuclear agreement.)
Nobody at all can argue that this deal is the expectations for the province that the Liberals promised. But it is something and it will be a boon for Prince Rupert.
A lot of people in this town are heavily invested in the success of this project. And I don’t mean financially. Any of us who have lived here for - say - the past 20+ years want so badly for this town to regain some of its economic strength, to regain its tax base, to improve its infrastructure etc. It is really hard to divorce ourselves from the emotion we feel for this town.
If the legislation were about an LNG terminal in Powell River, I would probably be saying “typical Liberal incompetence” and shrugging off Powell River.
I can’t do that here - well, i can the incompetence part, but not the shrugging off. Intellectually I am totally conflicted.
And does anybody remember this. I don’t.
vancouversun.com/opinion/col … story.html[/quote]
Considering that these type of good deal locally/bad deal provincially happens all the time and across multiple governments, I don’t really care how this deal affects the rest of the province.
So many times the lower mainland is benefiting from different funding agreements that has no value to us in the North.
It is high time that our region & the North experience some local benefit. So while this deal may not be the absolute best deal for the people outside of the North, it certainly is good for us and that is what matters #1 to me, the local benefits attached.
[quote=“DWhite”]http://www.straight.com/news/488211/martyn-brown-christy-clarks-boon-big-oil
I am not trying to ruffle feathers but the above article is a real condemnation of the legislation including the speed in which it is being debated and passed.
So now I am wondering: At what point does a good deal for Prince Rupert trump a bad deal for the province. Or put another way. At what point does a bad deal become worse than no deal at all. (Many Americans are arguing that over the Iran/nuclear agreement.)
Nobody at all can argue that this deal is the expectations for the province that the Liberals promised. But it is something and it will be a boon for Prince Rupert.
A lot of people in this town are heavily invested in the success of this project. And I don’t mean financially. Any of us who have lived here for - say - the past 20+ years want so badly for this town to regain some of its economic strength, to regain its tax base, to improve its infrastructure etc. It is really hard to divorce ourselves from the emotion we feel for this town.
If the legislation were about an LNG terminal in Powell River, I would probably be saying “typical Liberal incompetence” and shrugging off Powell River.
I can’t do that here - well, i can the incompetence part, but not the shrugging off. Intellectually I am totally conflicted.
And does anybody remember this. I don’t.
vancouversun.com/opinion/col … story.html[/quote]
The first article is written by disgruntled former Chief of Staff of Gordon Campbell, Martyn Brown, who was relieved of his duties by Clark after she took over as leader.
"Some apologists for the premier dismiss Brown’s book and his comments as sour grapes, coming from someone Clark fired as one of her first actions."
thetyee.ca/Books/2012/08/28/Martyn-Brown-Book/
I can’t take anything that he says seriously.
You’re right about the investment of community members. We all have a lot riding on these proposed developments, as does the rest of the province even if they won’t get the direct benefits of jobs, ancillary business, etc. The projected $8 billion that will come into the revenue stream will help to support your former colleagues in the educational field, health care, infrastructure, etc. I fail to see the incompetency as you suggest. I see a government that has opened our Irvin r up for business and is exploring all of the options available to responsibly promote industrial development. That gives me a whole lot more to be excited about than just listening to the NDP criticize. They don’t give me hope of a bright future, they make me cringe at the thought of what may happen if they took power. Lucky for me however that with their approach, they are unlikely to form a government for a long time.
9/10s of the problem is so many have forgot what a “working MAN” is.
Beaten down by a generation of Tories, Socreds, and BS Liberals they think “At leas’ de Boss will gib us new shoes!” is how working men think.
That’s why the hostility to the natives, none of the Bands are gonna settle for the least anymore.
I suppose we’re supposed to think the Libs are learning, they’re only offering a 25 year free ride instead of a 999 year one like Gordo woulda offered…
[quote=“herbie_popnecker”]
I suppose we’re supposed to think the Libs are learning, they’re only offering a 25 year free ride instead of a 999 year one like Gordo woulda offered…[/quote]
"“It provides a measure of stability that says to them, here are the rules of the game that will govern this industrial activity within this jurisdiction for the term of the agreement and they can bank on that and know those rules are not likely to change,”
what free ride? an export tax on LNG is a free ride? what other of our resource industry pays an export tax? NONE whatsoever
This topic is fascinating. In Prince Rupert, Liberal supporters are dancing around the negative aspects of the legislation and NDP supporters remain silent because like most everybody they want our town to succeed and don’t want to sound treasonous.
bthedog I admire your honesty. I have basically told people from outside Rupert that “we really don’t care how bad the legislation might be. It will help us. Sure it is selfish but it’s about time we got something given what other areas have received” or words to that effect. However I do think this is unusual because I don’t accept your contention that “good deal locally/bad deal provincially happens all the time.” Most of the time it would be good for the province/bad for a region that is negatively impacted or left out.
A decision could be purposely made to support a region because it needs help and the rest of the province will help pay for it. That is not the case here. The government is not trying to help Prince Rupert specifically; at least they are not arguing that point. They are arguing that the legislation is good. (And it may be, although the Martyn Brown article seemed pretty convincing.)
crazytrain I enjoy reading your posts because despite our sometimes differing opinions you come across as reasonable.
But, you can’t just dismiss Martyn Brown as biased and then turn around and link us to an article quoting Mike de Jong. Besides being completely biased as the finance minister he is also the guy responsible for the Basi-Virk payout. Just sayin’.
And as to my competence comment. I wasn’t specifically referring to the actual legislation although I do feel the government boxed themselves in and are so desperate to see a deal in place that they probably didn’t get what they could have and certainly didn’t get any where near what they had promised. My comment was just as much to do with their inability to be avoid scandals like shredding FOI documents and the health care firings.
You are lucky you have a party that you can support. Sad for me who sees nobody that inspires.
Anyway, I know there are still challenges ahead, but I think most of us think we are up to those challenges and look forward to a brighter future.
I feel the same way, DWhite. I have always voted for the NDP, but, I am ambivalent about supporting our MLA on October 19th or Ms. Rice in May 2017.
THIS!
[quote=“DWhite”]
bthedog I admire your honesty. I have basically told people from outside Rupert that “we really don’t care how bad the legislation might be. It will help us. Sure it is selfish but it’s about time we got something given what other areas have received” or words to that effect. However I do think this is unusual because I don’t accept your contention that “good deal locally/bad deal provincially happens all the time.” Most of the time it would be good for the province/bad for a region that is negatively impacted or left out.
A decision could be purposely made to support a region because it needs help and the rest of the province will help pay for it. That is not the case here. The government is not trying to help Prince Rupert specifically; at least they are not arguing that point. They are arguing that the legislation is good. (And it may be, although the Martyn Brown article seemed pretty convincing.) .[/quote]
I don’t think the deal is bad…I think it is a good deal…the 25 year economic impact by securing this deal through the concessions given makes it a good deal. Not only that but the government will be collecting more from this project in taxes/royalties than it does the entire forestry industry combined.
You folks voted for her! Have a nice day!
I am actually laughing at the people who are moaning about foreign workers as if 90% of the lazy, unemployed people would actually get up and try to get these jobs - they don’t have the credentials! Those few who actually are just down on their luck not from their own accord i’m sure will be able to get the jobs no problemo.
As for if these foreign workers come from other parts of Canada or other countries? I really could care less. What Prince Rupert needs is population so we can actually have the facilities and services that any normal town should have. At this point Prince Rupert needs to look out for Prince Rupert - we have been shunned and battered down by the rest of our province and country so why should we have any sympathy if these jobs are not fellow countryman.
Bring in the people! Wherever they may come from.
I heard 250 permanent jobs for the PNW LNG plant from a “so so” local source.
This economic report confirms that number: policyalternatives.ca/sites … nt_web.pdf
“based on data provided by the companies that propose to engage
in the production and transport of LNG, BC’s LNG sector could be expected
to support only 2,000 to 3,000 construction jobs per plant over three years
and 200 to 300 permanent workers once operational. Real-world experience in
Australia supports these numbers.”
“As well, the growing use of “fly-in, fly-out” (FIFO) workers is an emerging issue for
large resource projects, including LNG development. Using FIFO workers greatly
reduces local economic benefits in the areas where development takes place.”
So on the plus side: 250 permanent jobs & short term construction and spin off jobs some of which we are already seeing.
Most reports are saying 330 long term jobs and 4500-5000 construction jobs.
The direct job angle is only one piece of the pie, the taxes, infrastructure investment, spin off jobs (estimates over 300)…there is no way to be convinced this project will not have a massive impact here.
It has also been mentioned previously that the need to bring in more skilled trades people from other countries may be required if multiple projects are ongoing and overlap. It’s not unreasonable to think that if 3 projects are being built concurrently requiring more than 10,000 workers that some of them may have to come from outside of this region and perhaps other countries.
[quote=“bthedog”]Most reports are saying 330 long term jobs and 4500-5000 construction jobs.
The direct job angle is only one piece of the pie, the taxes, infrastructure investment, spin off jobs (estimates over 300)…there is no way to be convinced this project will not have a massive impact here.[/quote]
Massive Impact- no doubt about that.
I don’t want to twist what you are saying. There will be massive good -We need jobs badly in Rupert and it sounds like 250 to 330 long-term direct jobs and 50 or so long-term spin-off jobs too. Plus a massive short-term boom.
But Massive Impact goes both ways
- risk to Flora Bank and hundreds of fishing jobs
-will the province lose jobs when cheap domestic natural gas prices go up?
-The president of Malaysia is a key player, will corruption spread.
-There are all those fracking jobs in north east BC.
-Billion dollar offers which divide the community.
-The plant itself will burn as much natural gas for compression as a huge power plant- it is the same magnitude as the Sumas energy project was-- used up just to ship it off continent.
-The PNW plant would export so much LNG that Dr. Hughes said, if I understood him correctly, that Canada couldn’t afford two like it without the future need to import LNG.
-It is expected to increase the domestic price of gas for everyone in BC (pensioners, greenhouse businesses…)
-Selling a major long-term asset, a limited resource, when the prices are rock bottom is a massive loss
The port, Petronas and the BC govt got it so wrong choosing Lelu site and sticking to it, they pushed me over the edge. This decison is not a no brainer even if the site was good.But I’ve seen incompetence, pig-headedness and disregard for local values- This is not the team I want having massive impact in Rupert.
[quote=“atsea”]
[quote=“bthedog”]Most reports are saying 330 long term jobs and 4500-5000 construction jobs.
The direct job angle is only one piece of the pie, the taxes, infrastructure investment, spin off jobs (estimates over 300)…there is no way to be convinced this project will not have a massive impact here.[/quote]
Massive Impact- no doubt about that.
I don’t want to twist what you are saying. There will be massive good -We need jobs badly in Rupert and it sounds like 250 to 330 long-term direct jobs and 50 or so long-term spin-off jobs too. Plus a massive short-term boom.
But Massive Impact goes both ways
- risk to Flora Bank and hundreds of fishing jobs
-will the province lose jobs when cheap domestic natural gas prices go up?
-The president of Malaysia is a key player, will corruption spread.
-There are all those fracking jobs in north east BC.
-Billion dollar offers which divide the community.
-The plant itself will burn as much natural gas for compression as a huge power plant- it is the same magnitude as the Sumas energy project was-- used up just to ship it off continent.
-The PNW plant would export so much LNG that Dr. Hughes said, if I understood him correctly, that Canada couldn’t afford two like it without the future need to import LNG.
-It is expected to increase the domestic price of gas for everyone in BC (pensioners, greenhouse businesses…)
-Selling a major long-term asset, a limited resource, when the prices are rock bottom is a massive loss
The port, Petronas and the BC govt got it so wrong choosing Lelu site and sticking to it, they pushed me over the edge. This decison is not a no brainer even if the site was good.But I’ve seen incompetence, pig-headedness and disregard for local values- This is not the team I want having massive impact in Rupert.[/quote]
Your opposition to this project now totally explains your “skewing” of the job numbers, in your first post and now again in your 2nd post.
You are pulling the “50 or so” indirect jobs out of thin air. The proponent has already stated that spin-off/indirect jobs is likely to be closer to 300, and those are just jobs spun-off from terminal operations.
Furthermore, those fracking jobs in the Northeast are the reason why that area of the province is booming and enjoying a renaissance. There is no doubt the terminal will create pollution, but overall it will be less than what the old pulp mill on Watson Island produced and everyone was just fine during those 40-50 years.
I believe the environmental assessment is going to ensure there is no damage to Flora Bank, if they discover that significant damage will occurr, then I would expect them to come back with a NO…and additionally the proponent has already put in major mitigating factors to eliminate threat to Flora Bank. Hundreds of vessels traverse Chatham Sound every year in Prince Rupert without incident or contact with Flora Bank. This terminals berth is in Chatham Sound, so I fail to see how a ship loading in Chatham Sound will impact Flora Bank anymore than any of the other vessels that are berthing at Ridley Island terminals.
Furthermore, imagine what 250 (again, this is not the number) to 330 (this is the number) new direct high-paying jobs will mean to this region? When you consider the employment of Prince Rupert’s other major terminals (PRG, Ridley, Fairview), it is quite staggering. PNW will have more employees than PRG & Ridley Terminals combined, and then some.
[quote=“atsea”]
[quote=“bthedog”]Most reports are saying 330 long term jobs and 4500-5000 construction jobs.
The direct job angle is only one piece of the pie, the taxes, infrastructure investment, spin off jobs (estimates over 300)…there is no way to be convinced this project will not have a massive impact here.[/quote]
Massive Impact- no doubt about that.
I don’t want to twist what you are saying. There will be massive good -We need jobs badly in Rupert and it sounds like 250 to 330 long-term direct jobs and 50 or so long-term spin-off jobs too. Plus a massive short-term boom.
But Massive Impact goes both ways
- risk to Flora Bank and hundreds of fishing jobs
-will the province lose jobs when cheap domestic natural gas prices go up?
-The president of Malaysia is a key player, will corruption spread.
-There are all those fracking jobs in north east BC.
-Billion dollar offers which divide the community.
-The plant itself will burn as much natural gas for compression as a huge power plant- it is the same magnitude as the Sumas energy project was-- used up just to ship it off continent.
-The PNW plant would export so much LNG that Dr. Hughes said, if I understood him correctly, that Canada couldn’t afford two like it without the future need to import LNG.
-It is expected to increase the domestic price of gas for everyone in BC (pensioners, greenhouse businesses…)
-Selling a major long-term asset, a limited resource, when the prices are rock bottom is a massive loss
The port, Petronas and the BC govt got it so wrong choosing Lelu site and sticking to it, they pushed me over the edge. This decison is not a no brainer even if the site was good.But I’ve seen incompetence, pig-headedness and disregard for local values- This is not the team I want having massive impact in Rupert.[/quote]
Agreed!
And I still support Jennifer who voted against the project in the first a second readings. With the Liberal majority her vote on the final reading would not have changed anything. Opposition voices are just picayune potshots by propagandists.
[quote=“Soggy”]
Massive Impact- no doubt about that.
I don’t want to twist what you are saying. There will be massive good -We need jobs badly in Rupert and it sounds like 250 to 330 long-term direct jobs and 50 or so long-term spin-off jobs too. Plus a massive short-term boom.
But Massive Impact goes both ways
- risk to Flora Bank and hundreds of fishing jobs
-will the province lose jobs when cheap domestic natural gas prices go up?
-The president of Malaysia is a key player, will corruption spread.
-There are all those fracking jobs in north east BC.
-Billion dollar offers which divide the community.
-The plant itself will burn as much natural gas for compression as a huge power plant- it is the same magnitude as the Sumas energy project was-- used up just to ship it off continent.
-The PNW plant would export so much LNG that Dr. Hughes said, if I understood him correctly, that Canada couldn’t afford two like it without the future need to import LNG.
-It is expected to increase the domestic price of gas for everyone in BC (pensioners, greenhouse businesses…)
-Selling a major long-term asset, a limited resource, when the prices are rock bottom is a massive loss
The port, Petronas and the BC govt got it so wrong choosing Lelu site and sticking to it, they pushed me over the edge. This decison is not a no brainer even if the site was good.But I’ve seen incompetence, pig-headedness and disregard for local values- This is not the team I want having massive impact in Rupert.
Agreed!
And I still support Jennifer who voted against the project in the first a second readings. With the Liberal majority her vote on the final reading would not have changed anything. Opposition voices are just picayune potshots by propagandists.[/quote]
Well then if her vote is meaningless, than so is her role as an MLA…if we applied your thinking, she should just pack it in and quit then, her vote doesn’t matter anyway as the Liberals have a majority. The same could be applied to Conservative/Liberal/Green voters in this riding…why vote, the NDP is going to win anyway, so who cares.
And yes her vote would have changed nothing (thank God for small miracles!), but that doesn’t mean she should be absent from the official vote, especially on a bill that DIRECTLY impacts her riding.
She has failed to secure anything substantial for this region and has only worked against the economic tide here…she is the worst MLA in the history of this riding (and that is being nice!). I am holding her to task on this non-vote and hope to see her soundly defeated in the next election in this area.