New school

Let me see if I can revitalize a discussion about the Pacific Coast (alternate) School that I think needs to happen here.  Let me preface my thoughts with the following two points:

a) I am a teacher, and as such I am ethically bound to cast no aspersions on colleagues in a public forum, regardless of anonymity.  Nor would I wish to in any event, since the motivations and efforts of colleagues on this project are, in my view, beyond reproach.  Therefore,  I will confine my ideas to common knowledge, and some questions.

b) I am in support of an alternative educational setting, on the condition that it is effectively planned, and that the associated funding is prudent and without adverse effects elsewhere in the system.

So…some facts as I understand them (and I am more than receptive to correction from those closer to the project).  At the moment, the new school has no building, and is projected to open in two weeks.  It has a current staff of two teachers, an administrator, and if I am not mistaken, a half time secretarial support worker.  All told, that represents roughly $230,000 in salaries (not counting pension and health subsidies from the district), half of which is already spent, since it is now January.  Last time I looked, the district was closing schools to save costs.

In addition, a small group of prospective students has been receiving instruction at PRSS from regular PRSS staff (not the alternative school teachers), for the past four months (an additional cost). 

Postings are out for an additional teacher, and an elementary school counsellor who would divide his/her time between the elementary schools and an alternate school who’s stated mission is “social and emotional development of students who don’t succeed in a regular school setting”. 

There is no public information regarding the number of students anticipated in two weeks, in a non-existent building.  However, if one takes the number of professional staff, and assumes equity with the regular high schools, then at least 66 students would be required up front, in order to match the approximately 22 students per teacher ratio at the high schools.  I’m guessing the reality is far short of that number.

I think the public needs to weigh in on that.  Therefore, my questions:

1.  Why is there no public information on the full costs of salaries, and anticipated enrollment of the new school?

2.  If the costs, as it would seem from the above information, represent an unusually large financial commitment to a small number of students, then where is the quid pro quo?  What part of our financially strapped system is paying for all this with fewer resources, fewer teachers, and larger classes?

3.  Can this discussion have any value if it is not taken in the context of the effects that school closures have had, particularly on the consolidated schools on the east side?

3.  Why is it that the project has reached a point of “two weeks to opening day”, without a building to occupy?  As yet, I have seen some extensive discussion of the pros and cons of City Council’s recent decision, but very little regarding the consultation process employed by the school district.  In my humble opinion, that is the core of the necessary discussion.

4.  What is the current position of the Board on these, and related questions?  I, for one, would like to believe that the trustees are aware of these issues, and strong in their responsibility to the district as a whole.

I throw these thoughts out, in the hope that the patrons of this illustrious site might chew it over, and perhaps move reality to a more close approximation of ideal.

 

All decent questions, although I believe the enrollment numbers were around 40 students expected and I think the teacher costs were included in the budget documents (although I could be wrong; the budget documents are available at the board office).

As for point #4: “What is the current position of the Board on these, and related questions?  I, for one, would like to believe that the trustees are aware of these issues, and strong in their responsibility to the district as a whole”

I would really encourage you to attend the school board meeting tomorrow night at seven p.m. There is always a 10 minute public question period at the end of the meeting where anyone in the gallery can ask anything they want without being on the agenda. These are all questions that could be posed to the board and Superintendent, and recorded in the minutes for future reference.

If you want answers, this is the way to go.

S Thomas, I am in full agreement with you; these questions are appropriately asked of the Board and Superintendent.  Where we differ, or where my point was perhaps missed, is on who should be asking the questions.  My point was that the general public, and the media responsible for informing them, need to engage in this.  Questions posed by parents, or members of the public, will resonate much more effectively than yet another complaint from a teacher.

In addition, it is my understanding that the first item on tonight’s meeting is a presentation by teachers on the effects of school consolidation.  This will also be well worth listening to.

On projected enrollment, it will be interesting to see how close “reality” will be to “expectations”.  Some have speculated there is a gap at present.

I can’t answer all the questions, but I can take an unofficial stab at them.  Anything I write isn’t official – I’m sure you can get an official answer at the School Board meeting, though.

I’m glad to hear your user ID isn’t just accidental.  

We do have a few building options, but it’s not really my area, nor my place to answer the questions concerning the site.  I’m confident it will be discussed at the School Board meeting.  I can tell you, though, that even with a new site, the City process isn’t a fast one.  From measuring the length of parking spaces, to ensuring that all the neighbours are consulted, the school district and school staff are proceeding cautiously.  I’m surprised Prince Rumour hasn’t weighed in on our new proposed location, as all the neighbours are aware of it by now.

I’m not sure what the ratio should be for alternative education.  Do you believe it should be the same ratio as a “regular” high school?  If the goal here is to make this school unlike a “regular” high school, then perhaps the student-teacher ration might be different as well.

I’m sure the proper place to air this kind of information is at a Board meeting.  As far as I know, my salary, as well as those of others, is public record.  The budget for the school, as well as anticipated enrollment are also public record – I know this because I was part of the group that presented this information to the School Board several months ago.  

The budget itself was set last year, and hasn’t changed.  The School Board has public budget meetings, and all budget information is public.

[quote]
2.  If the costs, as it would seem from the above information, represent an unusually large financial commitment to a small number of students, then where is the quid pro quo?  What part of our financially strapped system is paying for all this with fewer resources, fewer teachers, and larger classes?[/quote]

Again, this has been explained, in public record, at at least two School Board meetings.

Good question.  I think there’s going to be a presentation on this very topic at the next School Board meeting, isn’t there?

I think you should ask this at the Board meeting for sure.  

As for consultation, I personally walked around and spoke with our new prospective neighbours, and took part in several open meetings to discuss the issues.  I’m not sure if you were aware these meetings were taking place or not – if you’d let me know where you work (in a private message, even), I’ll let you know who attended from your particular school.  

I know the our teacher union president was present at one of our open meetings, and several of the open School Board meetings, for example.

[quote]
4.  What is the current position of the Board on these, and related questions?  I, for one, would like to believe that the trustees are aware of these issues, and strong in their responsibility to the district as a whole.[/quote]

The Board’s position is also an open record.  I think there was even a couple of newspaper articles about it.

[quote]
I throw these thoughts out, in the hope that the patrons of this illustrious site might chew it over, and perhaps move reality to a more close approximation of ideal.[/quote]

Thanks for bringing up the topic.

 

I’m surprised that smurfette hasn’t broken the location for us yet.

You could make this a htmf guessing game, pass on a geographical hint a day until we figure out where the new location is… :wink:

Podunkian, I guess that’s part of my point.  2 weeks to go, and we are waiting on Prince Rumour to get back from interviewing Brad Pitt…Surely the information flow needs to be more concrete, timely, and inclusive on the part of the district?

In response to MiG, now that I have a lunch hour and a few minutes.  I’m sorry, but I don’t know how to do that fancy text wrap thing.  Perhaps a mini-lesson another time?  In the meantime, I have put your remarks in quotes.

"Anything I write isn’t official – I’m sure you can get an official answer at the School Board meeting, though."
One concern I have is that the “official” answers are the subject of some mistrust, particularly on the part of many teachers.  Look no further than the District Visioning Committee, its legacy, and the decision to walk away from it, for an example.

"Do you believe it should be the same ratio as a “regular” high school?"
Not necessarily, but there is a slippery slope here.  Even 40 students (which I think is initially overly optimistic), would be receiving the support of at least 3 full time teachers, a full time Principal, and part-time counselling.  Where do we draw the line?  When does an admirable project become an issue of inequity for students collectively?  The (not very) logical endpoint is to simply assume the alternate model is better for all, everybody enrolls, and we assume a FTE ratio of 10 to 1.  We could fund that, couldn’t we?

"The budget for the school, as well as anticipated enrollment are also public record"
True, but I was being rhetorical.  My broader point was on public discourse and information.  This site is a worthy “alternative” for people reluctant to peruse Board meeting minutes.  I maintain that there are reasons for concern in regard to budget and sequence of events in terms of school closures and new projects.

On “consultation”, I have no doubt that conversations took place, that meetings occurred.  My concern about consultation is not that it hasn’t happened to a degree.  Rather, I am concerned that the consultation on this and other issues like closures has not been meaningful.  I have always got the sense that consultation has been seen as a necessary hoop to go through AFTER basic decisions have been made, not BEFORE.  I would like to see slower change based on broader consensus.

On the Board’s position, I wonder if it has shifted, at least in tone, given the looming deadline?  No doubt we will find out more tonight.

Now, for the time being at least, I have had my say.  I’m very interested in what others think.

I tried to post earlier but something got messed.

Your a teacher???..PLZ identify the school as a favour to my kids education.

Effectively planned?  I would say that the players in place are top notch educators who are suited to an alternate education format.  ADVERSE effects elsewhere in the system???  Are you for real?  IF all students were “normal” ie: no learning challenges .  then there would be no need eriod for “special” or stream lined systems of educating our youth.  So let me ask you…do we pull out all teacher aides assigned to ADD or other challenged students?  What about mobility kids?  Doi we pull funding for them also…so that we can keep the funding in THE system? 

Teacher your comments are astounding as an educator.  I say this in the shoes of a parent and community minded person.  My kids are on the “normal” side of learning…but god forbid they ever needed “assistance” with you at the helm.

My comments arent meant to offend…but I am perplexed.

Hopefully you don’t help your kids with their English homework. Seriously, Mcsash–just because you put “no offense” at the end of your post doesn’t mean you can say anything you want without being offensive.

As a teacher, this teacher is certainly qualified and knowledgeable enough to form an opinion on this kind of issue. Were she making points in favour of the current direction of the school, you’d be just fine. You take issue with the fact she disagrees, not with her points–because let’s face it, you don’t know enough about the alternative school or alternative education in general to form a good counter to her argument… just like me.

LOL, oh oh somebody is going to get a tongue lashing very shortly… :imp:

I think mcsash makes a very good point about the fact that all students aren’t “normal” or fit into the public school system as it exists now. I don’t have all the answers to the qustions put forward here but I do know that this type of school will be a benifit to many students and to the community.
PS: this is the second time I have , somewhat,agreed with mcsash

Yes he does make a good point.  However, he is not following the argument of teacher and, as usual, he attacks the person instead of the statement. 
If teacher is who I think, I can vouch for this person’s ability as an educator for having worked in the same school.  That doesn’t mean I agree all the time with this educator.  In fact, I think we’ve had very different opinions in the past but don’t question the quality of this person’s craft.  Many a student would step up to agree with me on this one as this is one of those teachers who taught them to think for themselves.

mcsash loses every argument because he can’t help but treating others like crap as soon as he disagrees with them.  After that he wonders why he is the wasteland janitor!

Wow Mcsash, it seems that you missed the point that you were repling to.  “Teacher” is not saying that the money should not be allocated to students with special needs, nor is “Teacher” saying that an alternate school is a bad idea.  

What I get from the entry is that “Teacher” is throwing a few thoughts out there mainly:

That money is being spent before, building, or population has been determined and that this should have parents and taxpayers concerned about the management of said project.  

Secondly, if we are willing to spend money without a clear plan and this is not taxing to the school board budget, then why have we closed 2 schools and discussed projected savings (which was stated to go back into the system for teacher librarians etc, which has resulted: the displacement many students, some of whom are special needs who are now, along with their peers, in crowded situations that limit gym time, computer and library time.  This situation does not benefit our children.  But hey, if you support all these brillant decisions, then I hope to god YOU are not teaching my children!!

Perhaps one should not get so hot under the collar when authority is questioned but remember that this is a democracy and that speaking out to ignite discusssion is healthy, especially when most people don’t question what is happening until they are personally effected.  Teacher’s voices aren’t being listened to on issues of education and that is a shame, b/c they are the experts.  When we need a decision made about a medical issue we don’t consult a farmer.  Why is it politians are the ones making decisions in education with their funding formulas and other artificial measures.  

Lets question and continue to question, especially when our children, our future is at stake!!!

I dont argue…people can disagree all they want.  I have no issue.  But when someone brings my kids into the equation…then yes i will come out fighting.

I have never wondered why I am the wasteland janitor…but I did laugh when I read that.  
I havent been to wasteland in long time…
Thanks for sharing big thumb

See, you don’t get it!  He didn’t bring your kids into it to talk about them, he talked about you helping your kid!  There’s a huge difference!   
Kind of like saying:  “I hope he doesn’t react so aggressively when his kids disagree with him”   
See, I didn’t talk bad about your kids,  I stated something about you, which is exactly what I’m trying to tell you to avoid! 
If you would actually read the posts, you might not have such a knee jerk reaction all the time.
Oh by the way, I sent the other post to your home on htmf. 

I think teacher made it very clear that s/he is in support of the alternate school model but has questions about the approach the school district has taken.
I am too wondering about the $100,000 budget that was put on to the 6 month preparation for the new school.  I think that considering the salaries the 3 people already employed for the school since last September and all the traveling they did to explore different models - they traveled to 3 different sites and the superintendent and the secretary treasurer went to two other schools down south - that $100,000 budget isn’t enough.  Yet, the school district administration maintains it hasn’t spend a penny more on it.
There were quite a few questions back last spring, when public forums were held about the school closures and plans for the new schools were presented, why it would take half a year and spending all that money to get it up and going and to this date there a still not many answers.  
I am too wondering where the money will come from, now that the$100,000 seemed to have gone, to maintain that low student - teacher ratio for that school if that truly was the budget for it.
During the school closure public meetings the trustees repeatedly maintained that all students will receive the best possible education and that it will even be improved after the school closures, but the reality is that most elementary schools are now overcrowded and students learning conditions have deteriorated. I am too working in an elementary school and the moral is at an all time low and no question there is resentment towards the way the district is handling the new school giving it lots of time to get it up and running while at the same time class sizes increase and teachers are more stressed than I have ever seen them.

Hey, Teacher, you can find out how to do the fancy quoting and stuff like that in the help section of the website:

hackingthemainframe.com/help

especially this section:

hackingthemainframe.com/smf/inde … post#reply

You have been watching too much John Cleese.

Thanks TIPS…

[quote=“MiG”]
Hey, Teacher, you can find out how to do the fancy quoting and stuff like that in the help section of the website:

Thanks, MiG.  Hope this works.

Whoops…not quite.  Next time.[/quote]

lol. 
You quote then you write outside the quote.   You can also erase in the quote if it is too long. 

So glad to hear from others on this, including McSash, who is entitled to his or her opinion, as I am.  I prefer debate to invective, but that’s just me.

In the meantime, I had a chance to see the powerpoint presentation that the board will see tonight on the consolidated schools.  It paints a very clear portrait of overcrowding, lack of resources, challenging class compositions.  As I said in my original questions, this needs to be taken into consideration in the context of any discussion of the alternate school project.  There is only one pot of funding…it is in the public interest to ensure that it is shared wisely.