Latest BC Liberal Lying Sack of @%^#

[quote=“DWhite”]The Globe and Mail claims that the specific word count rules were put in place after the petition was submitted.

theglobeandmail.com/news/nat … le1814445/[/quote]

That’s interesting, but the 200 word limit to a petition isn’t new; it’s in the legislation.

“19 (1)© a statement, not exceeding 200 words, setting out why, in the opinion of the applicant, the recall of the Member is warranted;”

It’s most unfortunate that the organizers tried to circumvent the rules by using abbreviations or failed to pay adequate attention. I’d love to see a sitting MLA successfully recalled.

The 200 word limit is in the legislation and the people failed to comply with that. However, the actual rules of what constitutes a word or a multiple of words was made up after the petition was submitted.

2010 = three words two thousand ten

I really did not know that. I would have counted it as one. I know we are quibbling over silliness. The petition should have been much, much shorter. For those who understand the issue the extra words are unnecessary. For those who don’t understand the issue, the extra words are likely meaningless.

But going back to appearances. If you make up rules after the fact; if you force people to resubmit the application instead of allowing them to make the necessary adjustments; if you force the canvassers to resubmit applications because the originals are attached to the old application, then there is more than enough fodder for thoughts of conspiracy.

[quote=“DWhite”]

But going back to appearances. If you make up rules after the fact; if you force people to resubmit the application instead of allowing them to make the necessary adjustments; if you force the canvassers to resubmit applications because the originals are attached to the old application, then there is more than enough fodder for thoughts of conspiracy.[/quote]

Did they make up the rules or just intepret them? Previous petitions were apparently much shorter, such that word counts were unnecessary. “Member of the Legislative Assembly”; five words not one. We’re not talking rocket science here.

It’s better to get the paperwork right at this stage, rather than have Ida Chong recalled then have the results of another election invalidated by a court because of procedural errors. If that happened, the cost of running the election would be wasted and Elections BC would lose credibility. An overturned election would not exactly be a career builder for Craig James and his colleagues at Elections BC either. I suggest those considerations offer more credible explanations for why Elections BC is ensuring that there are no doubts about whether the 200 word rule is complied with.

That aside, having an election overturned by a court later on would be a bigger blow to the recall initiative than redoing some paperwork before proceeding with this particular petition. No doubt Zalm’s army will be better prepared as they launch their next recall campaigns, which for all we know are ultimately aimed at undermining the Liberals and paving the way for another centre-right party in BC. I don’t think that he is doing all this to advance Carole James aspirations to be premier.

I am no longer going to argue the rights and wrongs of the word count. By all means make sure the paperwork is done correctly. At the same time, however, I still think Elections BC was wrong to make them resubmit the application and especially have all the canvassers resubmit their applications. This takes time. Elections BC should be helping not hindering the process.

Having said that, in reference to your rocket science comment, I am curious how you would interpret the number of words for the following. AIDS? Scuba? Interpol? Radar? PIN?

Language is constantly evolving. Elections BC made a narrow definition on what makes a word a word.

If it sounds like a word is it one word? If general consensus tells us it is one word, is it one word? Does anybody say Emily is my member of the legislative assembly? Nope. We say “Emily is my Emilay.” Four words.

Well, I think it’s a matter of them posting the word count rules AFTER the submissions that makes this especially sleazy.

I’m still waiting to hear if Eccentric supports the HST or not.

Meanwhile, one of my favourite language blogs takes on the issue in a post titled “Political Shenanigans with word counts.”

languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=2804.

How great it must feel for an american blogger to poke fun at the Canadian political system for a once.

[quote=“BTravenn”]

Did they make up the rules or just intepret them? [/quote]

They posted new rules about how words would be counted after the submissions were received.

What’s the legal doctrine about not imposing new rules on the past? I’m sure you can look it up. Some fancy Latin?

Fine, but it’s not really appropriate to change those procedures after the paperwork has been submitted, is it?

Because changing rules on the fly ensures credibility?

[quote=“MiG”]

The prohibition against ex post facto laws does not apply here. For it to be relevant the government would have to convene the legislature, use its majority to amend (or repeal) the recall statute effective from some past date rather than from when royal assent is received, which is when laws are supposed to take effect.

Administrative bodies like Elections BC do not make laws they administer them. They have policies, or “rules” if you prefer, that interpret the laws that they administer. That’s what is at issue here. Deal with any federal or provincial department, ministry or agency, particularly if you have a dispute with them, and you inevitably come up against policies or guidelines that interpret the legislation that they administer.

That is because statutes are unlikely to be written to anticipate every possible situation that may arise. Policy fills in the gaps to minimize uncertainty. Sometimes questions arise that the law or the administrative policy interpreting it does not address. A change or amendment to the policy may be required. They can’t flip a coin to resolve uncertainty.

If someone doesn’t like the interpretation they can ask a court to review it. The courts, not administrators, have final say about what meaning the legislature intended when it enacted the words in the statute. That can involve defining words or phrases in statutes.

If the administrative body’s interpretation of how the law applies is found to be incorrect the decision is over-ruled and the policies are typically revised accordingly. Other government bodies may take note and change their policies to minimize the possibility of facing similar court challenges. That process of judicial review and policy revision is ongoing and fundamental to how our democracy works; likewise in the US I might add. I didn’t delve into it but I see that at least one American court had to deal with a word count dispute.

The HST petition illustrates how things work. The opponents of the petition came up with various interpretations as to how the petition was contrary to what the words in the statute meant, ie what the legislature intended. The judge disagreed with the opponents and ruled that the much-maligned Craig James had correctly interpreted the statute when he approved the petition for submission to the legislature.

If you want to know how words in statutes like the recall legislation should be interpreted (and counted) one good place to start is by looking at (incredibly) the Intepretation Act. You will find the following definition: ’ “words” includes figures, punctuation marks, and typographical, monetary and mathematical symbols;'. So, okay, is “2010” one word, three words (which is what Elections BC decided) or four words (it is after all four figures)? Some questions that seem simple, even banal, are not that straight forward.

Elections BC said that “MLA” is five words because it is an abbreviation for “Member of the Legislative Assembly”. Take a look at the definitions section of the Recall and Initiatives Act: bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws … e/96398_00 . Do you find “MLA” in there? The legislation does not recognize such a word. The petitioners could have just said “Member”; undeniably one word which the statute has conveniently defined as follows ‘“Member” means a member of the Legislative Assembly;’. Zalm’s team could have kept down their word count by letting the statute do some work for them, but they chose to use a common term that doesn’t have a legal definition. I suspect much the same could be said about their use of the abbreviation “HST”.

I’m most sorry, DWhite, but I will not address the various abbreviations that you cite that may or may not have morphed into words because they are all irrelevant to topic at hand. We are not talking about word games or lingustic riddles or how people generally use words.

When involved in a statutory process to recall a Member it is best to use statutory language. That means looking at how statutes, and perhaps in some cases judges, define particular words. Elections BC hasn’t “made a narrow definition” they have applied a legal definition so that their acceptance of the petition is more likely to withstand legal challenge.

The outcome is aptly summarized in the US blog article that was cited: “The recall has not been cut off at the knees: the proponents have submitted a new petition only 183 words long according to the new Elections BC rules. The effect has been a delay in getting the process started and a good bit of extra work since the 150 canvassers for the proponents all had to submit new applications.”

So Zalm’s army was put to some inconvenience, but now that they have trimmed their petition down to less than 200 words they are in a stronger position than they were before. When Ida Chong is called on to stand again for election because she has been recalled, which will no doubt be “faaantastic”, the opponents of the recall initiative will have less chance of success if and when they go to court to challenge the result. Thank you Elections BC.

[quote=“BTravenn”]

Elections BC said that “MLA” is five words because it is an abbreviation for “Member of the Legislative Assembly”. Take a look at the definitions section of the Recall and Initiatives Act: bclaws.ca/EPLibraries/bclaws … e/96398_00 . Do you find “MLA” in there? The legislation does not recognize such a word. The petitioners could have just said “Member”; undeniably one word which the statute has conveniently defined as follows ‘“Member” means a member of the Legislative Assembly;’. Zalm’s team could have kept down their word count by letting the statute do some work for them, but they chose to use a common term that doesn’t have a legal definition. I suspect much the same could be said about their use of the abbreviation “HST”. [/quote]

Are you saying that using “Member” instead of MLA would have saved the petitioners four words each time it was used? Going back to Eccentric’s comment about how I would feel if the shoe were on the other foot and the anti-HST side had won on a technicality, I would likely have lawled (one word or three), but certainly realized that the whole thing was a joke. To the general public member does not refer to MLA. Some of us would like to recall our member but it just aint possible.

[quote=“BTravenn”]
Some questions that seem simple, even banal, are not that straight forward.

I’m most sorry, DWhite, but I will not address the various abbreviations that you cite that may or may not have morphed into words because they are all irrelevant to topic at hand. We are not talking about word games or lingustic riddles or how people generally use words. [/quote]

I realize that the words I chose were irrelevant to the Elections BC topic. You said it was not rocket science and now you say some questions are not that simple.

I am wondering how people would react if the petition had gone through as originally written and somebody had taken the results to court on a word count issue. I can sum it up in one word. WTF.

[quote=“DWhite”]

Are you saying that using “Member” instead of MLA would have saved the petitioners four words each time it was used? [/quote]

That’s what I would expect.

In the Recall and Iniative Act it does. Likewise in debates in parliament and the legislature, probably under parliamentary rules.

They would probably invent a conspiracy theory that Craig James deliberately set Zalm’s army up for defeat by not pointing out that their word counts were off, and of course that he is a “BC Liberal Lying Sack of @%^#”.

Elections BC still has to verify signatures and so on, but it looks like Ida Chong will face another election. The NDP did well there last election, but I have trouble envisioning that Zalm and his associates will be just handing a seat to the NDP, who have distanced themselves from the recall initiative. Will there be an opening for a new or alternative centre-right party or an independent to replace Ida Chong?

From the Globe and Mail theglobeandmail.com/news/nat … le1815991/

Dennis Pilon, a political science professor at the University of Victoria, blasted Elections BC’s actions, saying, “You don’t change rules after the fact.”

“What kind of amateur hour is going on over there at Elections BC? I mean, this violates some of the most basic rules of democratic administration,” he said.

Mr. Pilon said an elections office will sometimes have to change how its rules are administered. But, like Ms. James, he said Elections BC should have worked through any problems with the anti-HST group.

“It doesn’t look good. The last thing we want is to mess with independent offices,” he said.

And this from the Vancouver Sun

The original recall application targeting Chong, the minister of science and universities, was submitted Monday. It was determined to be about 40 words over the limit.

But that is only after James created a policy on acronyms the day after the application was received. Recall organizers have been asking why Elections BC officials did not tell them their application was over the word limit so they could change it on the spot.

It turns out that is because the policy was not defined at the time.

“The 200-word limit is in the legislation; it’s always been there,” Poilievre said. “The methodology used for word counts had never been an issue in the past because all previous recall applications had come in at well below 200 words.”

Fight HST says the application came in at 180 words. Elections BC will not say what the word count was before acronyms were spelled out.

“Noting that there appeared not to be a policy, Craig James questioned the way that we were counting words and he implemented a policy that he feels adheres best to the legislation respecting the definition of the word,” said Poilievre.

Read more: vancouversun.com/Elections+a … z16XnJeqnz

Not to belabour the point. The issue here is not so much the word count. The issue is the manner in which the whole thing was handled. Maybe - and I emphasize maybe - a policy change was needed to ensure that there were no court actions. (I won’t begin to guess what was in Craig James’ mind when he decided to make this call. And of course he does not comment.) But if there was some confusion, then Elections BC should have made every effort to work through the problem with the petitioners. Instead they forced them to resubmit and to resubmit canvasser applications.

That’s why Dennis Pilon is upset. If Elections BC had said “Look the petition is over the limit because we believe MLA is five words and we want to make sure that the petition is legal”, we could have all had our little fun about how many words is scuba. But the petition could have been corrected within a couple of hours and everybody would have been happy. Instead we have an “acting” CEO drawing attention to an independent body and making the public less and less satisfied that it is non-partisan.

I agree that to make up a policy, then to apply it retroactively isn’t the way an independent office should be operating.

If, as has been pointed out, it’s up to the courts to decide if the law is being applied properly (through rules and policy). In the absence of a policy on abbreviations, initialisms, etc., then the court would have to decide how words are counted.

There was no such policy when the application was submitted.

As for the point about the perception of independence of the Elections BC office – too late for that. Now you can add the general lack of competence to the perception of the office.

Here’s what Section 19 says:

[quote]19 (1) A registered voter for an electoral district may apply under subsection (2) for the issuance of a petition for the recall of the Member of the Legislative Assembly for that electoral district.

(2) The application for the issuance of a recall petition must be made to the chief electoral officer and contain the following:
(a) the name of the Member;
(b) the name and residential address of the applicant;
© a statement, not exceeding 200 words, setting out why, in the opinion of the applicant, the recall of the Member is warranted;
(d) a solemn declaration of the applicant that he or she is not disqualified under this Act from making the application;
(e) any other information that may be prescribed.[/quote]

Instead of 19 (2)©, what if Elections BC decided that another part of the Act would be “clarified” by introducing a new policy after receiving an application?

For example, what if Elections BC introduced a policy stating that any application had to be made on 8.5"x14" legal paper, in triplicate? And that since the application that they received a couple of days ago was on 8.5"x11" paper, then legally, Elections BC will reject the application.

Or what if Elections BC introduced a policy, to clarify that the 19 (2) (b) meant that the applicant needed to spell his name in all capital letters, with no non-English accent marks? Perfectly within the right of Elections BC to do so, right? Well, what if they rejected an application that was submitted before they introduced this policy of “clarification” ?

This is all just nitpicky shit and its clear that ‘mr’ james has set out to compromise the legal petition and recall process in our province and was placed there to do so by the liberals. He has done nothing but delay the peoples will and should be held to account for his actions. This situation is fucking ridiculous and immature is our legislature filled a bunch of geriatric 12 year olds? I would have to say so.

I’ve seen school children with more maturity.

The court doesn’t decide on its own initiative if the law has been applied properly. A judge doesn’t read the Vancouver Sun and say “Geez I better do something about this as soon as I get to the office.” Someone has to petition the courts to intervene. There are only two possibilities I can see:

  1. Zalm’s recallers could challenge Elections BC’s word count decision by applying for a judicial review, and a judge would then decide whether the Act had been correctly applied. They haven’t done that and it doesn’t look like they will so it’s a moot point.

  2. Or, the anti-recall forces could wait until Elections BC calls an election in Ida Chong’s riding and apply for a judicial review of that decision; or they could hold their fire for a while longer and challenge Elections BC’s declaration that someone other than Ida Chong has been elected; in either case on the grounds that the recall petition was flawed.

If there is another scenario under which the courts would intervene, please point it out.

There is no advantage to giving the other side legal ammunition. Again, I would encourage a close read of Allan v BC (Chief Electoral Officer). The pro-HST people (who are no doubt anti-recall) raised every technical issue they could find. That should be expected in future challenges.

What the Sun story skims over (and that the US blog also mentioned) is that Zalm’s organizers have very sensibly revised their paperwork to address Elections BC’s word count issues, a process that was expected to be completed yesterday. The petition, and the election that will follow from it, will then be more difficult for the anti-recall forces to legally challenge.

That’s a far better result than what many seem to be urging, which is that Elections BC should accept a flawed petition and hold an election, so that Ida Chong or her supporters can raise the word count issue later on though a judicial review.

Think it though. Ida Chong loses the election but gets to keep her seat because a judge subsequently agrees that the petition was flawed (because of word counts), so the results of the vote are invalid. Do any of you really think that would be a good result or worth risking?

Zalm’s organizers have answered that question for us. Instead of applying for a judicial review of the word count decision, they have been re-doing the paperwork, thus shoring up their legal defences.

Meanwhile, on the political front, Zalm’s forces have stirred up quite a tempest, questioning Elections BC’s independence. That is maintaining media and public interest in the recall initiative, which faltered somewhat after Campbell agreed to hold a referendum on the HST. Zalm was quite annoyed that Campbell outflanked him in that regard, but he seems to have re-grouped and turned things around.

The argumentum ad verecundiam from UVic really is not very persuasive, by the way. All the prof does is state a conclusion, then repeat it.

That aside, the rhetoric about Elections BC will be quietly dropped. Elections BC, satisfied that the word counts have been addressed, will verify the signatures (hopefully not too many people cheated by signing more than once), then call an election in Oak Bay Gordon Head. When Ida Chong is defeated (by whom is still an unexplored question) does anyone honestly think that Zalm will still be arguing that Elections BC lacks independence or is incompetent?

The question still remains though. What is he really aiming at? Will he be satisfied if Ida Chong and eventually others are voted out of office? Would he like the NDP, his old adversary, to have a windfall of new seats as a result of all of his work. Is there some secret plan under which for reasons unknown he will revive Carole James’ political fortunes? Or does he have other ambitions that he has not revealed to us yet.

Zalm is a very experienced and wily politican. I didn’t like him as premier but it really has to be said that he is one hell of a battlefield tactician.

I am starting to feel like a troll. But I am not. This is actually of interest to me.

BTravenn you have a vast knowledge of legal matters. I am not going to argue with you on points of law. And I don’t want to put words in Mig’s mouth, but I think he was saying that had the petition been accepted as originally written and somebody had challenged the validity of the petition because of word count then without a written policy from Elections BC, the court would have to decide what constitutes a word.

The facts still remain. There was no policy before the submission. They put in a policy after the submission with no explanation. Was it to ensure a court case didn’t happen? I think you were the one who suggested that a court challenge could occur but I have read nothing of that elsewhere. Or was it done to cause trouble? I really don’t know.

Again, the facts still remain. Elections BC did not try to help the petitioners. In fact they made them jump through hoops (re-do everything) because Elections BC didn’t have a policy. Pilon is upset that they didn’t work with the petitioners. They went out of their way to make it harder.

And seriously, how do you think the public would react to a court challenge based on word count, on whether MLA is five words or one? How do you think a judge would rule in this case particularly without a written policy? The precedent of words like AIDS and scuba would make it difficult to accept the challenge. And suppose the judge did. How do you think the public would react to a legitimate grassroots initiative being overturned over a decision on whether or not MLA was five words not one?

If you think people are pissed off now…

Whether there was a policy or not, if someone challenged the validity of the petition because they considered that the word count had been exceeded (or if the recallers considered that the petition had been improperly rejected) the court would apply the law (not Elections BC’s policy) to decide what constitutes a word, or more accurately 200 words. It is the decision to accept or reject that is reviewed, not whether or not there is a policy.

It’s hard to anticipate what the court would decide. That is why Zalm’s people were wise to revise the petition so that the word count issue is eliminated and cannot provide grounds for a challenge down the road, presumably by Ida Chong’s supporters.

The explanation I read was that previous petitions had been well under the 200 word limit, so they hadn’t required a detailed policy on word counts up until then. Presented with a wordy petition they had to make a decision. I see the policy as explaining the grounds for their decision, and for providing guidance for similar petitions in future, keeping in mind that other recall campaigns are in the works.

I think that Elections BC developed the policy to avoid or minimize “trouble”, particularly a future legal challenge by the anti-recall forces. Zalm’s people were put to some inconvenience, but it really doesn’t strike me as that big a deal compared to the massive amount of work that was done to collect thousands of signature.

Which would be bigger “trouble”, having Zalm’s people spend a few days revising their paperwork, which they appear to have done? Or the Chief Electoral Officer calling an election, spending public funds conducting the vote, declaring a winner, and then facing a legal challenge in the courts to overturn the results because of word count issues?

As for me saying that a court challenge could occur but you not having read that anywhere else, any decision made by any administrative official that exercises statutory powers is subject to judicial review to correct any errors. The court can cancel, confirm or suspend a decision, send it back for reconsideration, or order that a decision be made. Again, look at the Allan decision as an example.

I don’t think that there can be any doubt that if and when Elections BC calls an election in Ida Chong’s riding, or declares a result, those decisions will be subject to review if her supporters can find grounds for launching a challenge.

I don’t think, by the way, that the anti-recall forces are likely to telegraph their strategy any time soon. My bet would be that they would have been quite happy if Craig James had caved in and approved the original petition even though it appears to have exceeded the word count. That would have given them a basis for a legal challenge later on, to keep Ida Chong in office if she loses the recall vote. Now they will have to look for other issues.

There is a limit to how much help they can give. Elections BC’s role is to make decisions pertaining to electoral processes. They are not consultants, and they cannot appear to be taking sides. Presumably the pro and anti-recall forces can hire lawyers and other consultants to advise them. That being said, the word count policy should assist preparation of future petitions.

[quote=“DWhite”]

And seriously, how do you think the public would react to a court challenge based on word count, on whether MLA is five words or one? How do you think a judge would rule in this case particularly without a written policy? The precedent of words like AIDS and scuba would make it difficult to accept the challenge. And suppose the judge did. How do you think the public would react to a legitimate grassroots initiative being overturned over a decision on whether or not MLA was five words not one?

If you think people are pissed off now…[/quote]

If you mean “accept the challenge” in the sense of hear the case, the judge would hear the evidence and arguments and make a decision. Courts cannot turn down cases because they involve difficult or new issues. If a case is properly before them they always make a decision. They have no choice in the matter.

As for ruling in a case without a written policy, I’m not completely sure what you mean. Courts apply the law. Policies are only administrative interpretations of the law that a court may or may not agree with. Confusing law with policy seems to be a source of recurrent confusion. Policy may help the judge understand the reasoning behind a decision that has been challenged, but the judge will apply the law. They are not bound by policy. Defining words and phrases in statutes is part of the judiciary’s bread and butter.

As for people being pissed off, I think that the more interesting question is what made them pissed off. On the one hand Zalm’s people are revising their paperwork to avoid any issues over the word count, and on the other hand they are still stoking the media fires as if word counts are still a live issue, which really it’s not. Again, Zalm is a very experienced and wily politician.

At a time when a great many people have been dissatisifed with Campbell and Carole James, Zalm seems to have a filled a leadership vacuum in the province. People are following him, and I’m not saying that is a bad thing, but the question still remains, where are the angry and disenchanted following him to?

Will the outcome be a further weakened Liberal party, with chips falling where they may in terms of whether they will remain the government or be succeeded by a new government under Carole James? Or, as ThePodunkian alluded to in passing in his blog a while back, is he leading the masses into the warm embrace of a centre-right party in BC that will effectively displace and perhaps succeed the Liberals?

So far people seem to be quite content to just follow him down the road without a lot of thought as to where it might lead to.

You seem to be missing my point. I not concerned about what is happening right now. Of course the recall side made the right decision to follow the ruling. Enough time and effort has been wasted because of this particular decision. A court challenge based on word count would be a mockery - from either side.

And we probably agree more than this discussion may sound. I am just asking for clarification from somebody who I feel has a vast knowledge about law as well as someone who appears to support Elections BC.

[quote=“BTravenn”]
the court would apply the law (not Elections BC’s policy) to decide what constitutes a word, or more accurately 200 words.
It’s hard to anticipate what the court would decide.[/quote]

This is my curiosity. Now that Elections BC has a policy there is no discussion. And it is a good thing that they now have a policy for the future. I am just curious what the law says about what constitutes a word or an initialism or whatever. This is all hypothetical at this point. If the original petition had been challenged, how do you think the court would have ruled on word count. What is the legal definition of an initialism? If scuba is considered a word and not five then how do you think a judge would rule on MLA?

My pissed off comment refers to the outcome of such a trial. If a legitimate grassroots initiative had been overturned because a judge ruled that MLA was five words then I suspect there might be rioting in the streets. I think - and I’m no judge - that a court would reject the challenge probably for the aforementioned consequence but also because Elections BC and the petitioners had counted MLA as one word; therefore it must be one word. (To be clear, I am assuming that the original petition had gone through without question and only challenged after the recall results were in.)

[quote=“BTravenn”]
Which would be bigger “trouble”, having Zalm’s people spend a few days revising their paperwork, which they appear to have done? Or the Chief Electoral Officer calling an election, spending public funds conducting the vote, declaring a winner, and then facing a legal challenge in the courts to overturn the results because of word count issues? [/quote]

I have no doubt that having a policy in place is much better than not. We agree here. Personally I consider MLA one word, but so what. As I said that issue is dead. The blogger that Mig referred to suggested that character strokes may be a more efficient way of determining length of a petition. Given all the changes to language because of technology, that seems a far easier way to go. Maybe the recall legislation should be amended.

[quote=“BTravenn”]
There is a limit to how much help they can give. Elections BC’s role is to make decisions pertaining to electoral processes. They are not consultants, and they cannot appear to be taking sides. Presumably the pro and anti-recall forces can hire lawyers and other consultants to advise them. That being said, the word count policy should assist preparation of future petitions.[/quote]

Here we disagree. In the absence of a policy, i think it was incumbent on Elections BC to be as accommodating as possible. They were not. The spokesman for Oak Bay said he could have made the necessary changes in the office. Without the policy in place it couldn’t be done. Fair enough. But why force all the canvassers to resubmit applications?

Elections BC is not supposed to take sides. We agree on that. But helping a petitioner ensure that the petition is done correctly is not taking sides.

If I am not mistaken James’ predecessor was criticized by government for some decisions that they felt were siding with the anti-HST forces. The deputy had also been criticized for a decision she made that the government didn’t like. Nobody knows why the predecessor’s contract was not renewed nor whether he would have accepted an extension if one had been offered. Nobody knows why James dismissed the deputy in his “acting” capacity.

As you say, Elections BC cannot appear to be taking sides. Unfortunately, people are looking very closely at Elections BC and not liking what they see.

[quote=“DWhite”] … A court challenge based on word count would be a mockery - from either side. … I am just asking for clarification from … someone who appears to support Elections BC.
[/quote]

The legislature included in the Act a requirement that petitions not exceed 200 words. Elections BC has to deal it; likewise the courts if either side launches a legal challenge. They’re stuck with having to interpret what the legislature meant, whether the requirement is clear or not, or makes sense or not. There’s no “mockery” there.

Sometimes judges point out poor choices of words in statutes or undesireable consequences that the legislature may not have anticipated, but judges can’t re-write the legislation. Only the people that we elect to the legislature can do that.

A “mockery” would be Ida Chong losing the election then using the law to reverse the result; not Elections BC or the courts interpreting and applying a law. A “mockery” might also be the legislature subsequently refusing to correct “bad law” if she won on a technicality. I don’t think, though, that a court challenge by the recallers to resolve the word count issue would have been a “mockery”. They would have been perfectly within their rights to do that.

I don’t “support” Elections BC by the way. I just think that the vitriol directed against them is over-stated, and that it happens to support Zalm’s media campaign. Generating media coverage is fair enough and Zalm is an experienced politician, but there is usually more than one side to every story.

As an abbreviation for five words.

[quote=“DWhite”]
… If a legitimate grassroots initiative had been overturned because a judge ruled that MLA was five words then I suspect there might be rioting in the streets. I think … that a court would reject the challenge probably for the aforementioned consequence[/quote]

I highly doubt that. Fortunately Stephen Harper has not succeeded in his mission to politicize our judiciary, which even the Americans acknowledge is one of the finest in the world. The courts would let the police deal with the rioters, assuming there are any. I also suspect that Zalm would encourage calm. As BC’s most effective politician these days I am sure that he would be listened to by many. I doubt that there would be any riots, especially if it is raining.

[quote=“DWhite”]
… I think … that a court would reject the challenge … also because Elections BC and the petitioners had counted MLA as one word; therefore it must be one word. [/quote]

The judge would interpret what the legislature must have meant by “200 words”, not (under your hypothetical scenario) what Elections BC and Zalm’s petitioners thought it meant.

[quote=“DWhite”]
The blogger that Mig referred to suggested that character strokes may be a more efficient way of determining length of a petition. Given all the changes to language because of technology, that seems a far easier way to go. Maybe the recall legislation should be amended.[/quote]

That’s a matter for the legislature to consider. Elections BC and potentially the courts are stuck with interpreting what “200 words” means.

Did Zalm’s people ask Elections BC to comment on their draft petition, or ask them about the word counts, before they started collecting signatures? There are practical limits to how many eventualities policy-writers can anticipate and provide guidance on.

The canvassers were not “forced to resubmit applications”. They could have gotten a ruling from the courts. There were choices.

No, we don’t know; best not to speculate. And whether James is acting or not he has the job, the authority and the legal accountability if either side challenge his decisions in court.

[quote=“DWhite”]
As you say, Elections BC cannot appear to be taking sides. Unfortunately, people are looking very closely at Elections BC and not liking what they see.[/quote]

That sounds like argumentum ad populum (a great many people think something so it must be true). Do you think that those same people will not be liking what they see if and when Elections BC calls an election in Ida Chong’s riding or declares that someone other than her has been elected? These issues will have gone away by then.

By the way, who do you think Zalm will be supporting? The NDP? Do you think that the Conservative Party will come in from the political wilderness as a centre-right alternative to the Liberals? Or will Zalm just sit back and rest content that he sure did shake things up a lot?

I am enjoying this.

At least you answered one question. Not sure if it is correct, but you did say that you thought a judge would rule that MLA is five words - I guess because there is a legal definition of what counts as a single word compared to what counts as an abbreviation of several words.

Is there a legal definition of that? I really don’t know. Failing an actual legal definition then the judge has to make a decision based on what? Precedent is then set. You’re the legal expert. IMHO (which is four words because I actually say "in my humble opinion when I see those letters), I think MLA is one word because it is so commonly used as such. He’s my MLA. He’s my teacher. He’s my plumber. He’s my lawyer. On top of that, too many people, I fear, do not even know what the letters stand for. They are just referring to the person who represents them in Victoria. He’s my representative. Three words.

BTW (three words) I would count some abbreviations as more than one word. PR as in Prince Rupert is two words. I am not completely sure how I would count PR as in public relations. At this point I think it is two, but it is getting to be used more often than “public relations” that at some point I may consider it one.

NY is two words because we read it as New York. But LA might be one word because we read it as LA but I would prefer it counted as two because … well I don’t know why. In some things I am still old fashioned.

Maybe we do not a court case. Noam Chomsky would make an interesting witness.

That was a joke. I still think a court case on word count would be a mockery regardless of who initiated it. And I still think a judge without any legal definition would rule that MLA was one word because the petitioners and Elections BC had read it as such. (Again this is hypothetical, assuming nothing had been said until the court case.) In the absence of law don’t judges use common sense. Wouldn’t the judge think, “SCUBA is one word because we commonly think of it as one, these two groups took a common abbreviation and counted it as one; therefore it must be one.”

And if the judge didn’t think that way and overturned a legitimate grassroots initiative, there may not be rioting, but I certainly believe the people of the province would be mocking the judicial system which may be just as bad.

Now I will try to answer your question. I have no idea what VanderZalm is up to. i really don’t care. I am disgusted by the so-called Liberal Party of BC. I don’t care what people think of the NDP of the '90’s and we can argue all day on whether they were as bad as they have been made out to be. (I am disillusioned by them as well.) But the Liberals have got to go. They no longer command the trust of people like me, not just on political decisions. They have come across as liars and puppets for big business. They deserved to be punished.

My problem with all this is that the NDP has to be careful how they respond to business. My fear is that big business will “go on strike” or “work to rule” when the NDP is in power. (Yeh another conspiracy theory). But even if the NDP blows up, at least the other parties will know that they can’t get away with anything when they get in. I really hope that Vander Zalm’s legacy is that he brought back people’s involvement in the democratic process. That people will not be tricked by government regardless of party.

Sorry I was interrupted in the midst of my last post and forgot to comment on your apparent support of Craig James.

I am only speculating but this is what seems to be bothering many people. He was put in power without any consultation with the opposition. This position is supposed to be a unanimous decision of the legislature. He has made decisions, some controversial but that probably has to be accepted. But two things really bother me.

The first is the dismissal of the deputy who had 28 years experience. James is a lifelong bureaucrat but had no experience at Elections BC. As an acting CEO and I emphasize acting he made the decision to get rid of the most experienced person in the office because of - I think I recall - changes that would be occurring. The guy is acting CEO and he is contemplating changes that involve getting rid of senior people who perhaps should have had the job he was given. Remember too that James’ predecessor and the deputy had made decisions that were not popular with the government. All of this is easy stuff get people speculating.

The second issue is the requirement that all canvassers have to resubmit their applications. This just seems like an unnecessary hoop. Maybe it is a required hoop, I don’t know. I am more disturbed by the removal of the deputy.