Wait, you want us to accept history as proof of something in the present?
Would you also accept history of electoral fraud in Iran as proof of electoral fraud in the present?
Not that I disagree with you, but what you’re asking is that others have a higher standard of “proof” and “evidence” than you demand of yourself.
You don’t think electoral fraud is happening, and don’t want us to accept any media reports. Yet you want us to believe the US is trying to engineer a coup, but have even less “proof” of this.
So yeah, how about you provide an admission of a US coup attempt, or else you’re making the same mistake that you accuse others of making.
Obama admitting its government was involved in overthrowing a democratically elected government certainly has weight in this matter. More weight than a few news reports with no real substance reporting election fraud, don’t you think?
It certainly might add weight to the argument of election fraud sure. It would likely convince me a whole lot more if the Iranian government admitted past electoral fraud.
Not at all. You asked me what would convince me of election fraud. I said likely nothing short of admission, based on what I described above.
I have seen nothing substantial which convinces me of election fraud. Silent witnesses, reports of massive protests , one example of a television screen shot showing vote count changing, news reports of %140 voting that even admit “The claims are impossible to verify”.
It might of happened, i do not know. But I do believe Ahmedinejad could easily get the majority vote anyway.
Indeed, we both sit here now without any current tangible evidence of electoral fraud by Iran or the U.S. Although the U.S. has admitted electoral fraud against Iran in the past. More than we can say about Iran.
So because something happened 50 years ago it must be happening now too? Also, what threat do you think Iran poses to the U.S.? Their economy is terrible right now because of low oil prices and high unemployment which many Iranians blame on Ahmedinejad.
Statistical analysis of the election (easy to understand too): tinyurl.com/l5cchn The authors claim that the chances of this being a clean election are 1 in 200.
No.
The Iranian police crushed the protests in Tehran yesterday. Approximately 19 people died.
How can we know if the election was legitimate? The government will not permit a full transparent audit of the election.
I believe so based on what I have researched and understanding the current economic situation. I encourage you to research how the CIA executed the 1952 coup. You will see similarities in what is currently transpiring in Iran. Notice the excessive attention Iran is getting in the media on this matter. A lot of noise with little substance. Didn’t get this much media coverage and scrutiny with Pakistan’s election irregularities, even a murder from one of its candidates. A media barrage. We even have the Washington Post trying to prove statistically the election was fixed. This doesn’t necessarily prove that Iran’s election was not rigged. Doesn’t prove it was rigged either. Just use some critical viewing skills.
Iran poses an immediate economic threat to the United States, and I will tell you why. In order to understand how you should at least know a little about currency and some economics. I don’t have time to write a whole Thesis on this subject right now but if you want further information or evidence I am sure you can find all the information you need online. Some subjects to study/understand maybe first are “Fiat Currency”, “Unit Of Account”, “Reserve Currency”, “US Petro-Dollar”, “Basket of Currencies”,“Federal Reserve’s M3 “,” Federal Reserves decision to not publish the M3 money supply”, “US current account deficit”, “OPEC”, “US treasuries”," North America’s West Texas Intermediate crude",“North Sea Brent Crude”," New York Mercantile Exchange",“IntercontinentalExchange”," the new Iranian oil bourse/exchange". This will get you started. When you get time at least.
The threat started with Saddam. He decided to sell his oil (for food) in Euro dollars. It was being discussed @ the U.N. about lifting sanctions against Iraq because “everyone” knew there were no WMD’s. Both chief weapons inspectors would testify to this and satellite tech could easily pick up energy sig of any threat . Germany and France (Rumsfeld’s Old Europe, Freedom Fries) were investing in Iraq’s oil infrastructure in preparation for Iraq’s new oil business. Saddam decided to sell his oil in Euro dollars to undermine the US dollars, Petro-dollar status. He lobbied other OPEC countries to do the same. Venezuela considered this and is why the US eventually exercised their power and executed a coup against Chavez, then returned him - show of force. Iran expressed some interest in this at the time. Understand that if Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela were to switch to the Euro for all their oil transactions it would have had a very serious, devastating, shock to the US fiat dollar. It would have seriously devalued the US fiat dollar and would have sent US dollar Oil prices skyrocketing (much worse than it did). The financial position of the US at the time was very sensitive to say the least and a currency shock of that nature would have devastated the US/Western economies. The US/Britian had to do something. War/invasion with Iraq. Incidentally, the US had to borrow money from China and Japan to go to war with Iraq, see US treasury web site.
In 2007 Iran switched all its petroleum and oil based exports to non US dollar currencies. 2008 Iran’s Kish Bourse was opened for oil derived products with a second stage planned to include direct trade in crude oil. One of the largest OPEC producers (Iran) running an Exchange, next to New Yorks NYMEX and London’s ICE, for direct crude trade in Non-US dollars? Even hostile to US dollars. A very serious problem for US interests. Britian’s too.
Since then Russia announced it would sell their supply under their own currency, then Georgia invaded Ossetia, Russia sold 50 billion of Freddie and Fannie just before crash - tit for tat. Now Saudi Arabia has publicly announced they are considering selling their oil in a basket of currencies. The current situation is dire/desperate for the United States, the Empire is falling. Iran poses a very very serious threat to US hegemony and economy. The US is at war with Iran.
A very short and simplified version. A bit of laziness and alot of lack of time
Another thought to consider is China’s growing empire and their demand for energy. Today the US uses around 25 million of the 85 million barrels of oil produced today. If China, the largest growing economy, used the same amount of oil per capita as the US, China itself would consume over 100 million barrels of oil per day. China is more energy efficient per capita but when you consider the growing demand’s China is having for energy and the fact that the Auto corps are closing shop here to move to China cause they are very successful in China, it is not hard to see that 1.3 billion people in China could certainly eat up more than the US’s share of oil. There are certainly many other implications, I was just trying to make light of your statement that Iran needs us more.
Of all of the above, about the only real concern for the USA is China which currently holds most of their bonds and can whack the currency if it really desires, though that would affect the Chinese economically quite drastically as well, so intertwined are things there.
Sure the US would more than likely wish that the ayatollahs and the theocratical nature of the regime were out of the way (and sure they’d probably like to use their oil) But right now I suspect that they have a few other irons in the fire to worry about, China and it’s hold on the economy, North Korea an its hold on the nutbar factory…
Iran on the other hand, as has been pointed out earlier is more in the orbit of the Russian and non aligned nations, thus it’s not a particularly harmful thing to the US economy, foreign policy yes with their constant threats to destabilize the middle east vis a vis, wanting to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, subsidizing Hamas, Hezbollah et al (though Lebanon recently voted against those Iranian proxies)
Frankly, the last gasps of despotic regimes, whether secular or theocraticaly are when they start to club and shoot the old women in the streets as has been reported through this weekend, banning the foreign media such as they have only goes to reinforce the autocratic nature of their hold on power.
Simply put, you start to kill your own people and eventually those that are left probably will eventually realize that they could be next.
All despots eventually reach their end (to be replaced elsewhere with someone else of similar nature) it takes time but eventually the people do rise up and say enough is enough.
Agreed but how they come to their ends vary. I’m also not certain that this soft revolution will have the desired effects the west hopes for.
The Iranian Revolutionary Republic is well entrenched throughout many aspects of Iran’s society, including the governance. Given that both candidates had to be vetted first by the ayatollah suggests that the party system is not alive and well there.
But I have to say that I am impressed by the courage of these people to behave calmly yet forcefully. Then again, let’s not forget Vancouver’s APEC-experience. That was calm until Sgt. Pepper and his Lonely Pepper Spray Band offered some spice to the crowd.
Very impressive indeed! The supreme leader doesn’t look like he will back away from his hard line stance. I fear for the safety of the demonstrators; I hope we do not have another Tiananmen Square!
I heard over the weekend that something like 70 per cent of the population of Iran wasn’t even born when the Islamic Revolution took place, and as events have progressed there have been nods to that demographic, hence the plethora of texts, twitters and youtube features documenting the unrest of late.
There has been a sense of controlled freedom there, part Western, but steeped in Islamic doctrine, those that have enjoyed those Western like conveniences and it’s approach to the wider world won’t be finding the current situation to their liking I would think.
I too tend to agree with you that the nature of the system is probably akin alternating leader A with leader B with nary a change in direction, IN fact Mousavi as you stated was endorsed by his own cadres of clerics, and perhaps would not have offered a much different vision of Iran than the current leadership.
But something seems to have resonated there with the less than above board nature of the vote tabulation and now with the extreme clampdown on dissent.
Mousavi had tapped into that current even before the vote, in fact the debates between he and Ahmadinejad was rather heated and even by our standards nasty, Ahmadinejad even attacked Mousavi’s wife in the course of the run up to the election.
The fact that so many people believe that something wrong has happened with their process is not something that the clerics and ayatollahs are going to just be able to say is past, there will clearly be a schism in Iranian society, indeed it would appear even within the clerics themselves.
The beatings by motorcycle riding thugs (sanctioned by the gov’t as a flying squad of some sort) combined with the police action of late will embolden those that have taken to the streets.
What I’d like to know is what the army is thinking about all this, we haven’t seen much of them of late, during the Iran Iraq war hundreds of thousands of their soldiers were sent into battle many to die all at the behest of the Ayatollahs, I’m not so sure that same call will be answereed against their own people.
It is interesting times, though I go back to the population percentage from the start of this post, I think that time is against the current regime and its draconian ways.
You know your point would be more valid if more than Ron Paul was utilized as the holy grail, as soon as the Conspiracy hats come out, people tend to tune out.
Soon we’ll be hearing how this is all the machinations of One World Gov’t, the grand global conspiracy and such and such. Someone will eventually call us sheeple…
Maybe it is, what it is. The current gov’t of the day in Iran has made a mess of things, the people spoke out as anyone might, the gov’t in turn has reacted with violence to its people and for that will find that things will now get much worse for their hold on their people.
No secret hands at work from outside the nation, just a frustrated populace who think their government is working against them and have had enough.
I don’t understand why you would think others will accept your theory without any evidence, when you categorically reject anything else without any evidence.
[quote=“Dex”]
Notice the excessive attention Iran is getting in the media on this matter. A lot of noise with little substance. Didn’t get this much media coverage and scrutiny with Pakistan’s election irregularities, even a murder from one of its candidates. A media barrage. We even have the Washington Post trying to prove statistically the election was fixed. :roll: [/quote]
Can you tell me what was incorrect in the Washington Post article?
I understand about using the Euro versus the Dollar, I definitely understand that the USA has even had covert operations inside Iran. Totally, I get it.
But you basically want people to accept your explanation of things without any real evidence, yet you won’t accept the reports coming out from Iran as evidence of anything other than some sort of conspiracy by the USA?
You want your view of things to have a different level of proof than others’ view of things.
Please don’t take this as an attack on what you’re writing, either. Just that you should be willing to accept others’ views with the same level of proof that you want your views to be accepted.
Maybe you should read what the man has to say in the link I gave you. I do not really understand what you mean by the Conspiracy hat thing, could you elaborate? I am willing to stand by Ron Paul’s credentials when it comes to economic matters. He predicted the impending crash while other ignored it. He stood up to Greenspan for years (you can see these videos on youtube) criticizing him on his failed policies for which the US is feeling now. He is on the Subcommittee on Domestic Monetary Policy and Technology, Subcommittee on International Monetary Policy and Trade, the Joint Economic Committee. His credentials, experience and education certainly cannot be ignored in these matters; especially when you consider that HE WAS RIGHT!!
Maybe you should read the post before you make a comment and not get egg on your suit.
This doesn’t necessarily prove that Iran’s election was not rigged. Doesn’t prove it was rigged either. Just use some critical viewing skills.
