Hst

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1

I love the gall of some phone surveys. I just participated in one that was completely computerized. I wish there had been a real person on the other so I could have told him what I thought of the question.

“Are you in favour of keeping the HST which will go down to 10% or are you in favour of going back to the old PST/HST with a combined rate of 12%.”

First of all the rate does not go down to 11% until next year and then to 10% in 2014. Second, going back to the old PST/GST only means 12% on certain items. Or will they keep the PST on the new taxable items just to punish us?

So when polls come out telling us that support for the HST is going up it is based on a manipulative misleading question which is typical of the government that brought it in.

I am voting to get rid of the tax. Plain and simple I do not trust the government (any government) but especially the BC Liberals.

The people in this province regained democracy through the HST initiative. If we let this government take it back through trickery then we may as well give up.

The Liberals hid the HST from us in the 2009 election. It was not fully debated in the Legislature when it was introduced. With the passing of the initiative petition (which I am sure shocked the Liberals) we are now into a totally divisive, confusing referendum which includes

a mail-in ballot through the summer
a massive ad campaign from special interest groups that can afford to do so
government ads that are not as unbiased as they said they would be
bribery with our own money

It is absolutely sickening.

If the HST is so good, then let a political party campaign to bring it in and, if they gain a mandate to do so, have a complete and honest debate in the Legislature.

2

That wasn’t a poll, it was a “push poll” – en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll

3

the question was made up by the chief electorial officer of BC which is independent of the government, he is also the one that approved the initative to go through

i’m voting for it for one reason a consumption tax is far better then a hidden tax on the goods you buy, think of it this way with HST the business that buys products, ie a computer, from a manufacturer does not have to pass on the 7% hst since the business gets it back, but under the old system the 7% tax is added to his cost which the business now passes it on to the consumer by including it in the price, then you pay the gst + pst on top of it so in theory you are paying more then 12% in tax

4

[quote=“Jabber63”]the question was made up by the chief electorial officer of BC which is independent of the government, he is also the one that approved the initative to go through

i’m voting for it for one reason a consumption tax is far better then a hidden tax on the goods you buy, think of it this way with HST the business that buys products, ie a computer, from a manufacturer does not have to pass on the 7% hst since the business gets it back, but under the old system the 7% tax is added to his cost which the business now passes it on to the consumer by including it in the price, then you pay the gst + pst on top of it so in theory you are paying more then 12% in tax[/quote]

Ahem ACTING (at the time) chief electoral officer who blatantly ignored the law by not forwarding the petition on and helped the liberals to stall democracy. Mr james is a disgrace to the position and should have resigned not been promoted to a full time position.

oh and the HST costs me more so im against it. It costs more to raise my child, costs more to live. I make excellent money but it still pisses me off.

5

Actually you’re wrong.
With the old system only the end user pays the 7% PST. The retailer actually earned a small commission for collecting it.

When the HST came in, I had to pay 12% for parts to make computers instead of 5%. But I got 12% credits instead of 5%. Which meant it tied up 7% of my working capital for a year (we file annually) and I lost about $700 in commissions for collecting the PST.
But it took a weeks worth of my time and new software to make the change, which I will not do again unless someone compensates me.
Yeah it was bullshit the way it was implemented.
Yeah the Liberals lied to you.
The only thing worse is * they’re so nutless* they’re going to let people vote on it, and they’re gonna vote it out. So now they’re lying spineless sacks of shit. IT doesn’t get worse than that.
So what are you gonna do? Vote out one tax that’s gonna drop to 10% for two that total 12% ? If so, for what logical reason?

6

Ah heck, we’ll all vote for the HST, cause the Premier looks sharp in a cowboy hat

opinion250.com/blog/view/205 … ng+dollars

7

[quote=“herbie_popnecker”]Actually you’re wrong.
With the old system only the end user pays the 7% PST. The retailer actually earned a small commission for collecting it.

When the HST came in, I had to pay 12% for parts to make computers instead of 5%. But I got 12% credits instead of 5%. Which meant it tied up 7% of my working capital for a year (we file annually) and I lost about $700 in commissions for collecting the PST.
But it took a weeks worth of my time and new software to make the change, which I will not do again unless someone compensates me.
Yeah it was bullshit the way it was implemented.
Yeah the Liberals lied to you.
The only thing worse is * they’re so nutless* they’re going to let people vote on it, and they’re gonna vote it out. So now they’re lying spineless sacks of shit. IT doesn’t get worse than that.
So what are you gonna do? Vote out one tax that’s gonna drop to 10% for two that total 12% ? If so, for what logical reason?[/quote]

I’d take the hst if the exemption list was the same. I’d even take it at 14% also take away the pst on the private sale of used cars. Jimmy pattison isnt hurting that bad they dont really need to attempt to drive up off the lot used car sales. Fucking cocksuckers all of them.

8

[quote=“herbie_popnecker”]
The only thing worse is they’re so nutless they’re going to let people vote on it, and they’re gonna vote it out. So now they’re lying spineless sacks of shit. IT doesn’t get worse than that.

So what are you gonna do? Vote out one tax that’s gonna drop to 10% for two that total 12% ? If so, for what logical reason?[/quote]

The logical reason is your comment that precedes your question: “they’re lying, spineless sacks of shit.” That’s a good enough reason right there.

Everything about this tax, as far as I am concerned, is a lie. I don’t believe anybody especially Campbell and Clark but also Vander Zalm and Dix. I don’t believe business people who say prices will go down. I don’t believe economists who say jobs will be increased.

That’s why I say we have to start over. If the Liberals had been honest and were prepared to put the HST as part of an election platform (which they could still do if it is defeated) then I would have had no problem accepting it. I might not have liked it, but I would have felt that the democratic process had not been subverted.

As it is, they are promising tax cuts down the road. And we know how much they have been honest with past promises. They have raised corporate taxes to pay for the cut, something that they criticized Dix for suggesting. They have cut the tax by a couple of points, something they said they would not do because it would look like they were bribing us with our own money.

And I am no economist, but taxes are taxes. When they cut the personal income tax back in 2001, they paid for it buy cutting services and raising fees. If they can afford to cut the HST to 10% then they can find a way to cut the PST/GST.

Having said all that, I do sympathy with people like Herbie who have been caught in some kind of quagmire where they are screwed no matter what. But for me that again is one more reason for not allowing the present government to get away all that they have done.

As I see things, and I may certainly be wrong, if the HST passes then the Liberals have been forgiven and they win the next election. If the HST is defeated, there is a chance that the Liberals will lose. That is my logical reason.

9

I had no idea that the HST was a federally administered tax!

So anytime we need anything about the tax changed, amended, repealed, extinguished we have to apply to the Federal Government. Why on earth would we as a province give up our constitutional right to control our own taxation?

Now I am even more against the tax. Please look here for video of the public town halls for varying areas including Prince George. There are some VERY great open debates. Anti-HST side should find much pleasure in Mr. Delaney’s comments and rebuttles. I personally found the common sense of the anti side very refreshing (and relieved to hear clapping from the audiences) while the Pro side repeated the same comments over and over, and over, and over, and consistently made stabs at the audience’s questions or speakers while not really adressing the machanics of how their points of view work.


^This isn’t political debate - it’s pure entertainment.

10

Yep. I am going to vote to kill the tax as well.

11

I’d be interested in hearing what small business owners ( most of the businesses in PR) think of the HST. 'a bit of a loaded question, given that from my resources, most are in favor of the HST. Further to that ( i mentioned this a few months ago ) some businesses ( in the service, food and hotel industry) have lowered the prices accordingly. My point is that the HST does make sense. People in the finance world admit that a harmonized tax make sense.
People have a problem with the way it was rammed down our throats. I agree.

The HST will not be liked by everyone, but it will be liked by most, I’m wagering.

12

[quote=“MeepMeepZoom”]I had no idea that the HST was a federally administered tax!

So anytime we need anything about the tax changed, amended, repealed, extinguished we have to apply to the Federal Government. Why on earth would we as a province give up our constitutional right to control our own taxation?

Now I am even more against the tax.

[/quote]

That’s not a reason for being even more against the tax, unless you want to base your reasoning on a fallacy, which I don’t think is the case.

The operative word is “administered”. Under HST the province has delegated collection of sales taxes to the feds, just like the provinces have delegated collection of provincial income tax to the feds. The province has not delegated its taxing powers to the feds, and they can’t under the constitution. See the “Lord Nelson Case” for background.

PST was confusing from a business perspective. Some businesses (retailers) collected PST and got back what PST they paid, while other businesses (manufacturers) did not collect PST, did not get rebates and just ate the tax or passed it on to customers. Herbpopnecker provides a concise appraisal of the situation from a retail perspective.

Low income people, including many elderly, get higher HST rebates than they did not under GST/PST. It seems odd that some on the left would vote against that.

Some people seem to regard the HST vote not as an opportunity to debate and decide tax policy, but as a further opportunity to express contempt for the current government; further punish them for their dishonesty during the last election.

Or the issue is viewed strategically, in that if the HST passes that will improve the Liberal’s chances during the next election. That says at least as much about the NDP as it does about the Liberals. The next election is a long ways off. Perhaps by then the NDP will give us more reason to vote for them than how ex-premier Campbell mishandled the HST issue. We seem to have been voting for the least bad party for so long that it is hard to remember doing anything else.

I wonder, by the way, what HST exemptions the NDP would bring in if elected? Would they bring in all of the exemptions that applied under PST? Or any of them? Would they bring back the exemption on junk food and smokes? Would they keep the HST rebates that benefit low income people? The government of the day can bring in any exemptions or rebates that it wants whether the tax is HST or PST.

Campbell is gone. The HST Initiative resurrected Valm from former premier who left office under a cloud to folk hero, and achieved a result in that there will be a vote on HST, which we did not have last election. I don’t see how anyone could see that as a bad thing unless their position is that anything that the current government does must be bad or wrong, regardless, no exceptions.

I have not completely made up my mind. The political history around the HST has been thrashed over to the point where probably quite a few of us have switched off. Zalm has returned to obscurity. If all of that is left aside and the issue is considered purely as a question of tax policy, I don’t see much reason for going back to the PST.

13

I just don’t understand all the anger about the HST, it seemingly consolidates a taxation regimen and provided the province with a buffer of federal contributions to consolidate the new tax system to be put in place (and which will have to be paid back if the tax is axed).

As mentioned by BTravenn, the opposition seems to have been fomented mostly by Bill Vander Zalm, not exactly the guy I’m following out of a foxhole anytime soon, now if anything is going to send me to contrary opinion that would be it.

While I feel our taxes are already too high (I mean I live in Rupert, no one knows high taxes like a Rupertite), I understand the need for taxation to keep the wheels of government and such moving. It would be better if they managed our money better to begin, whether federally, provincially or municipally, but there is a need for tax collection.

What I don’t understand, is the number of people who derive their income from government sources, that seem against the tax, mainly it seems because it was introduced by a government they don’t particularly like.

If there is no government income generated by the HST, and in fact we have to repay Ottawa for the transfers we already have received, exactly how do those against the ideate expect the provincial government to continue to fund the very jobs and services that we currently enjoy?

It would seem that without the revenues garnered by the HST that the province will have no choice but to make any number of cutbacks in both services and jobs, I’m not sure that those opposing the tax have taken a lot of that into account.

Instead they stick to dogmatic rhetoric from a few sources that normally they would shudder to join forces with, go figure!

14

It’s simple. The Liberals promised during their election campaign, that they weren’t going to introduce the HST. A few weeks after the election they introduced the HST. Apparently, it was their plan all along.

What part of that don’t you understand?

15

As usual BTravenn you have summed up the issue in a neat package. I would actually be interested in knowing what you finally decide.

Not to be repetitious, but all of this comes down to trust.

Few of us are economists and can make up our minds about a tax policy. I can decide if I want my taxes to go up if I know the end result is a civic centre or a theatre or some other such project. But like most of us, I am really not clever enough to make up my mind on the benefits/problems with a specific method of collecting a tax. Even economists disagree on the HST.

So I have to ask myself who do I trust the most on this issue. A government that has consistently lied with the support of big business who gain the most from this tax shift or the anti-HST forces who do not appear to have anything to gain from their actions. (Maybe they do, but I don’t see it.)

And I do see this as a way of showing contempt for the current government. I make no apologies for that. The NDP were decimated in 2001. Even supporters like myself understand some of the reasons behind that. Hopefully, they learned enough from that experience to do a better job if they regain power. The Liberals over the last 10 years have given us plenty of reason to kick them out. And the introduction of the HST was the straw.

The people of BC used a democratic process to take back some of the power that the Liberals were taking for granted. If the HST passes then we may as well not have gone through the process at all.

Taxes are taxes are taxes. Governments have multiple ways of raising money. We need a proper tax policy in this province. The HST was poorly introduced and confusing to most. A harmonized consumption tax may or may not be a better method than others. But I can’t accept this tax in the manner that it was proposed under the conditions of a referendum where the details are being made up on the fly.

16

[quote=“zerocool”]

It’s simple. The Liberals promised during their election campaign, that they weren’t going to introduce the HST. A few weeks after the election they introduced the HST. Apparently, it was their plan all along.

What part of that don’t you understand?[/quote]

What part? Why some of you are still beating the same old war drum; that’s what I don’t understand.

I get everything that you say about the last election, but the election is not only over it was quite a while ago. Campbell was forced out of office. Clark was barely elected in what should have been a safe seat. The tax issue is being now being put to the people, as it should have been in the first place. It’s time to move on from political history to current events, from tired refrains about the last election to considering the province’s tax policy into the future.

17

We all seem to agree that they’re lying sacks of shit.
But many who agree seem to think things will go back to what they were.
If the HST is voted out, prepare for the next round
when they keep the PST on all the things that weren’t taxed before
when they increase the PST claiming they need to repay the feds $1.6 billion

I’ll stick with the GST’s original taxation concept. Reduce tax on earnings, replace it with one on consumption. Harper should have left the HST at 7% and raised the personal exemption instead. Put the savings in your pocket so you get decide whether to spend it and get taxed or use it to invest, pay off debt or save and not pay tax

18

[quote=“Jabber63”]the question was made up by the chief electorial officer of BC which is independent of the government, he is also the one that approved the initative to go through

i’m voting for it for one reason a consumption tax is far better then a hidden tax on the goods you buy, think of it this way with HST the business that buys products, ie a computer, from a manufacturer does not have to pass on the 7% hst since the business gets it back, but under the old system the 7% tax is added to his cost which the business now passes it on to the consumer by including it in the price, then you pay the gst + pst on top of it so in theory you are paying more then 12% in tax[/quote]

I really do get that. I have seen the argument that the end result is lower costs for manufacturers who IN THEORY will pass the savings on to consumers.

So as I understand it, this is a total tax shift from businesses to consumers. If all goes as planned my widgets will now cost me $x less to buy. The government is also getting less taxes from businesses so they have to tax us on far more goods and services than ever before. So while my widget is cheaper my haircut, restaurant meals etc etc are now more expensive. So I really don’t see how I benefit - I just come out even.

And that is only if we believe that the savings will be passed on to the consumers instead of to the CEOs and shareholders. Which again means I have to trust the people who are telling me that everything is good. And I can’t do that.

Not counting all the lies from other issues,

Campbell and Hansen lied about the tax not being on their radar before the election

the Liberals are lying when they say it is a choice between a 10% HST vs a 12% GST/PST. It is a choice between a 12% HST (none of the cuts come into effect until next year and beyond) and a 12% GST/PST with dozens of exemptions

Christy Clark lied when she said the confusion of the wording on the ballot was the fault of the anti-HST forces when in fact the wording was the work of Craig James the head of Elections BC. Well maybe she didn’t lie; maybe she just didn’t know. But maybe she should keep her mouth shut before passing on misleading information.thetyee.ca/Blogs/TheHook/BC-Poli … Confusion/ She also lied - oh to be fair spoke too soon - when she said she wouldn’t change the HST % when that would look like they were bribing us.

Kevin Falcon is lying or fear mongering when he says that there will be a hole in the deficit when the tax was supposed to be revenue neutral (which it wasn’t - they gained revenue). How can there be a hole in the deficit if the tax was supposed to be revenue neutral?

and they were lying when they said that the ads funded by the government would be unbiased. Have you seen any stickmen explain the problems of the HST or the benefits of the GST/PST? Me neither.publiceyeonline.com/archives/006167.html

I am sorry. I cannot vote for a tax shift on the vague promise that it may be beneficial when everything that comes out of the mouths of its supporters is lies or misinformation.

19

You are still going to pay 12% on your haircut. There’s not one promise to remove the PST from services included in the HST.
You’ll also get no more HST rebate cheques.
Then there’s the problem of the $1.6 billion the Feds kicked in. Layton promised to forgive it, not Harper. It will have to be paid back UNLESS (no one mentions this) the agreement expires in 4 years and THEN we go back to two taxes.
So do you want to risk paying even more tax to end it right away?
Do you want to wait 4 years and then go back to two taxes totalling 12%
Do you want to stay with the HST and pay 11% next year, 10% after that and keep the rebate cheques?

If there’s one thing I nail politicians on it’s sticking to ideology over common sense and what’s good for the country. The same applies to people, but they’re worse. Voting for parties that represent business interests instead of their interests and then bitching about it when they do.

20

Well I am voting to keep the HST…