Do you believe in God/gods?

[DWhite]

[quote=“cutter”]
I cant find a ridiculous comment in his post at all. His response seems to tackle the subject of creation having more validity than evolution and he challenges the writer to find evidence of evolution that he cannot find a stronger argument using the bible. His email is at the bottom of his response if you feel like rising to his challenge.[/quote]

To clarify, I did not say that his comments were ridiculous. He may very well be correct about evolution. What I said was that there is no evidence for a god inspired creation and Dr. Neeland offers none Finding one theory weak does not make another theory strong.

It is not necessarily ridiculous for a scientist to say that evolution is wrong. What is ridiculous is to say that it is wrong and then without an iota of proof insist that a 3000 year old story has to be correct.

I am not going to bother emailing the good doctor because you seem to think that he “tackles the subject of creation having more validity” and that there is “a stronger argument using the bible”. So please cutter will you give me the evidence that Dr. Neeland supplies. To save you the time. Ignoring the problems he has with evolution, this is what he says about a creation as depicted in the bible.

[quote]“The Intelligent Design (ID) movement is a powerful one which argues against evolution and for a creator very successfully. I could go on and on but suffice it to say that evolution is weaker as a theory today than at any other time.”

“Christianity is based on faith but it is an intelligent faith where the facts, strangely enough, line up with what the Bible claims as truth. Coincidence? I’ve made my decision by comparing both sides. The answer is clear to me.”

“On the other hand, the Bible contains truth and what can be checked up on (scientifically and archeologically) actually checks out OK with science. This topic alone is a fascinating one - Science and the Bible.”[/quote]

Yes he could go on and on and yes, Christianity is based on an intelligent faith and even though the facts line up with the Bible claims and that the Bible contains truth, he at no time - not once - offers one piece of evidence to support his claims.

I will repeat: He can criticize evolution as much as he wants. That is part of science. But a real scientist would never fall to a default theory that is based entirely on a story.

[cutter]

[quote=“bubbasteve735”]

[quote=“cutter”]This brings me back to a comment made by someone about the gays. they did not support the bible because their friends were gay and nice people and the bible is against gays.

Here is my view on that. Yes the bible speaks against being gay but I do not need a bible to tell me that homosexuality is against nature I already know it. What the bible tells me is whatever someone else is doing or how wrong I believe it may be it is not my place to talk about them or judge them that is up to god. " let he who is with out sin cast the first stone" since we are all sinners we should not be talking trash about other peoples lives.[/quote]

Alright Cutter, if being a homosexual is against nature, then why do quite a few animals practice it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals
And here’s a list of animals who practice it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_animals_displaying_homosexual_behavior

Against nature? Umm… I think not.

See what religion does? It makes ya closed minded. C’mon Cutter, open your mind a bit. Often times, I find, that religious people are FAR more judgemental than the non religious.
EDIT: Just so ya know. I don’t need to mention every atrocity made by religion, I was just using one that came to mind.[/quote]

Bubba not that I want to get into the pros and cons of homosexuality the point I was trying to make when saying against nature was simply if we all turned homosexual we would cease to exist. you missed the point of what I was trying to say the bible teaches us people have free will to do what they want it is not our place to judge them as we are not perfect ourselves

Now since the bible teaches me that It is not my place to judge peoples actions or deeds but leave judgement to god alone makes me close minded? Seems to me that is a live and let live attitude

[cutter]

Dwhite. I understand what you are saying and yes he does not offer a response to the question you are asking. He is from what I can see someone who can with facts show how weak a theory of evolution is to those who chose to believe it over creation.
He offers no proof of creation but says if you can find facts on evolution he can find stronger facts in favor of creation.

One interesting fact I found while reading the bible that made me think about science was a verse found in job 26:7 which says god created the earth and hung it upon nothing. This made me think, wow only hundreds of years ago we thought the earth was flat and the bible written thousands of years before that told us what we know to be true the earth does hang in the sky on nothing.

Proof of creation? nope. But considering that the greeks thought atlas was holding the earth up and even tho the bible was written around the same time as hinduism which believed the earth was held up by elephants the bible told a truth it took science thousands of years to figure out.

[DWhite]

Cutter, many ancient civilizations that predate the Bible thought the earth was round.

And you are cherry picking anyway. The Bible is full of a bunch of mythical explanations. By chance some of them will have a scientific basis.

Can you explain how God separated the light from the darkness on the first day - three days before he created the light producing sun.

Can you explain why the Bible talks about a greater light (sun) that rules the day and a lesser light (moon) that rules the night when the moon is not a light at all.

There are many scientific inconsistencies in the Bible.

I am no expert on evolution or the big bang or whatever other scientific explanation that is given for the universe’s existence. People can continue to search and/or poke holes in the scientific explanations. BUT, whatever faults science may have the default explanation cannot be a 3000 year old story without any kind of proof to back it up.

[cutter]

[quote=“DWhite”]Cutter, many ancient civilizations that predate the Bible thought the earth was round.

And you are cherry picking anyway. The Bible is full of a bunch of mythical explanations. By chance some of them will have a scientific basis.

Can you explain how God separated the light from the darkness on the first day - three days before he created the light producing sun.

Can you explain why the Bible talks about a greater light (sun) that rules the day and a lesser light (moon) that rules the night when the moon is not a light at all.

There are many scientific inconsistencies in the Bible.

I am no expert on evolution or the big bang or whatever other scientific explanation that is given for the universe’s existence. People can continue to search and/or poke holes in the scientific explanations. BUT, whatever faults science may have the default explanation cannot be a 3000 year old story without any kind of proof to back it up./quote

How many of those ancient civilizations said that the earth hung on nothing? Greeks said atlas held it up and hindus thought it was an elephant. I only pointed that verse out to show it was thought provoking to me how the bible made an accurate statement thousands of years before we had any idea that this was true. and yes i thought you might answer they were bound to get one right.

Heres how my bible starts: In the beginning when god created the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless void and darkness covered the face of the deep, while a strong wind from god swept over the face of the waters. Then god said " let there be light" and there was light.

You ask me how god can make light before he makes the sun? I cant even answer how he made the earth and I doubt “through god all things are possible” is the answer you are looking for.
I read the bible and I can discuss things I have read or correct people who makes comments without reading the bible but I never claimed to be an expert only a believer[/quote]

[Astro]

I have an older Bible that has adam and eve in plural, and the use of gods and not god. the Bible has been rewritten numberous times over the last 500 years to justify the needs of the church or king of the time.

we are all products of alien engineering.

[cutter]

[quote=“Astro”]I have an older Bible that has adam and eve in plural, and the use of gods and not god. the Bible has been rewritten numberous times over the last 500 years to justify the needs of the church or king of the time.

we are all products of alien engineering.[/quote]

Now this is the stuff I find interesting as I know there are variations of the bible and I would like to read as close to original as possible however that would mean learning a different language and then try to get the proper translations. eg God told moses when asked, I am who I am so tell them I am sent you. hebrew translation for I am= YHWH add vowels for english=yahweh break it down for hebrew= yod heh vav heh. or if you are a witness = jehovah.

I agree 100% when you say the church or kings influenced what was said or wrote. ( The reason the jews killed jesus was they did not want him spreading his message)

What is the name and or version of the bible you have? I would be curious to read it to see the differences

[Astro]

so the bible i have is from the trinitarian bible society and was printed in 9/72 chapter 1 verse 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have domination over the fish of the sea, and over the fowel of the air, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. chapter 3:22 “And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us…’” I think this is still common in most bibles but there it is…

[cutter]

@Astro

so the bible i have is from the trinitarian bible society and was printed in 9/72 chapter 1 verse 26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have domination over the fish of the sea, and over the fowel of the air, and over cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. chapter 3:22 “And the LORD God said, ‘The man has now become like one of us…’” I think this is still common in most bibles but there it is…

Thanks astro. Now this is a good question and one I have asked myself. Who is us? is he referring to the angels or spirits? It could be argued since since god created the heavens and the earth first he created us in the image of angels which of course would be made in his image.

Heres a question I have asked and cannot get an answer on. The bible says in the beginning there was nothing and god created the heavens and the earth. God was just drifting around in nothing before this? just this force who through all things are possible just sat around in nothing? how is this possible? God also says I am the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega there were none before me. ok then were did god come from?

[BigThumb]

cutter, I’ve observed this thread for a little while now without contributing but I have to point out something.

Here is what you just said (emphasis added)

[quote=“cutter”]

Heres a question I have asked and cannot get an answer on. ** The bible says in the beginning there was nothing **and god created the heavens and the earth. God was just drifting around in nothing before this? just this force who through all things are possible just sat around in nothing? how is this possible? God also says I am the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega there were none before me. ok then were did god come from?[/quote]

I find it healthy that you ask questions. However, there is a little dissonance in your discourse because in another thread, you said this:

[quote=“cutter”]
carbon dating and core samples? Are you telling me that because we can date somethings approximate age that there is no god? This discussion has gone way past all that stuff and we are talking about the creation of our universe can you give me a carbon date or core sample to tell me that?

One of the best mathematical minds of our generation stephen hawkings can only come up with gravity pulls nothing together so it becomes something. where did gravity come from? How is it that that the sun keeps burning and why is it that our planet is the only one in our solar system that supports life? of all the planets that we know of we just happen to be the only one that has life and we as humans just happened by chance to be the most intelligent species? somehow the earth formed and life just formed? it evolved into plants, trees animals and mammals? ** Tell you what you believe your fairy tale and i’ll believe mine**[/quote]

So you can’t accept the Big Bang a a valid theory even if it is based on scientific research and principles, similar to what allows you to communitcate via computer. But you ask the question about where did god come from and stick to the creation theory which is based on a series of books written a long time ago by people who, even though they were probably quite intelligent, didn’t have the knowledge base that we have today.

I’m sorry but I just find your logic a little weird.

[DWhite]

[quote=“cutter”]
Thanks astro. Now this is a good question and one I have asked myself. Who is us? is he referring to the angels or spirits? It could be argued since since god created the heavens and the earth first he created us in the image of angels which of course would be made in his image.

Heres a question I have asked and cannot get an answer on. The bible says in the beginning there was nothing and god created the heavens and the earth. God was just drifting around in nothing before this? just this force who through all things are possible just sat around in nothing? how is this possible? God also says I am the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega there were none before me. ok then were did god come from?[/quote]

You have some huge questions there. And I actually appreciate your questions because as much as you believe you also realize the problems with those beliefs and are trying to make sense of where you stand.

For what it is worth, here is where I stand and believe me, I have no problem with someone saying I am wrong.

It’s not that I don’t believe in a god, I just believe that the existence of one is highly improbable. As a result I live my life as if there isn’t one. I don’t go to church, I don’t pray, I don’t worry about what happens after death. I just try to live as decent a life as possible. I am not saying that I am perfect, but I would not be any better as a husband, parent, friend, co-worker, community member, etc. if I all of sudden had an epiphany and became an ardent believer.

And why do I think the existence of a god is highly improbable? For some of the very questions, you are asking. Where did god come from? I find it interesting that people cannot accept that the complexity of our universe could come from nothing, yet they will accept the fact that their god - this complex being with the capability of creating complexities out of nothing - must have come from nothing.

But what if he did? This is your question about what god was doing prior to creation. This perfect being who must have been perfectly happy in his perfectly blissful “world”, all of a sudden got this urge to create. Why? Was he lonely? Bored? What imperfection in his existence suddenly made him realize that he needed something more.

And as a perfect, omniscient, all-knowing, all-seeing god, he had to know what he was getting himself into. Why bother? Why make an imperfect world (even though he thought it was good), create beings who he manipulates into sinning and separating themselves from him, just so he can watch as they try to work themselves back into his favour.

It just doesn’t make any sense. But that’s just me.

[cutter]

I find my own logic weird most times. Heres my response to your comment. I read the bible I am no expert I am also no expert on the big bang theory so as people make comments either on scriptures or science I have to look it up for myself. My opinion can and does change as I read material however since the big bang theory is still just that ( A theory) theory= proposed explanation not fact.

The bible says god created the heavens and the earth. basically the bible says god created the big bang if indeed that is how our universe is created.

I offered my question on where did god come from to show that yes I do question what I read as the truth and am not closed minded as someone suggested but a person constantly trying to learn.

So far I choose to believe the bible based on my readings of course if anyone can show an argument that the bible is false I welcome the opportunity to read up and educate myself.

I showed where I read in job that the bible said god created the earth and hung it on nothing. job is old testament and the old testament is followed by the jews.

Now the bible also told that god would sent a messenger and predicted his death. jesus shows up teaches only good and says not only is his death predicted but he would rise 3 days after. Not only do we know jesus was real our own time is based on the birth and death of jesus. 2011 ad =after death for those who do not know. The bible tells how the jews knew jesus predicted his rising from the dead so they sent soldiers to guard the tomb. 3 days later jesus not only rose from the dead but was seen ( john 20;27-28)

The jews do not follow christianity but admit jesus lived and was a good man. The muslims know jesus existed and show respect when using his name .

There you go, proof to me that jesus existed and died as predicted in the bible. Not a theory which is another reason why I choose to believe in creation but am open to all discussion on the subject

[MiG]

I think you’re confusing the word “theory” with “hypothesis.” In science, “theory” doesn’t mean what you think it means.

Gravity is a theory. So is electricity. So is the systems theory runs this server. You don’t want to know how much theory is in the computer you used to post

You equate “theory” with “not real.” And that’s the just a classic case of ignorance. Don’t take it personally. You just didn’t know until now that “theory” didn’t mean what you thought it meant.

Here’s 2 minutes of reading that will enlighten you on that word: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

tl;dr version: “in modern science the term “theory”, or “scientific theory” is generally understood to refer to a proposed explanation of empirical phenomena, made in a way consistent with scientific method.”

[MiG]

@cutter

2011 ad =after death for those who do not know.

Do you think they spoke English back then?

A.D. = Anno Domini. The year of our lord. It’s supposed to be the year Jesus was born, not after he died.

Ok course, people didn’t really start using counting years like that until about 800 years after Jesus was around.

[cutter]

[quote=“DWhite”]

[quote=“cutter”]
Thanks astro. Now this is a good question and one I have asked myself. Who is us? is he referring to the angels or spirits? It could be argued since since god created the heavens and the earth first he created us in the image of angels which of course would be made in his image.

Heres a question I have asked and cannot get an answer on. The bible says in the beginning there was nothing and god created the heavens and the earth. God was just drifting around in nothing before this? just this force who through all things are possible just sat around in nothing? how is this possible? God also says I am the beginning and the end the alpha and the omega there were none before me. ok then were did god come from?[/quote]

You have some huge questions there. And I actually appreciate your questions because as much as you believe you also realize the problems with those beliefs and are trying to make sense of where you stand.

For what it is worth, here is where I stand and believe me, I have no problem with someone saying I am wrong.

It’s not that I don’t believe in a god, I just believe that the existence of one is highly improbable. As a result I live my life as if there isn’t one. I don’t go to church, I don’t pray, I don’t worry about what happens after death. I just try to live as decent a life as possible. I am not saying that I am perfect, but I would not be any better as a husband, parent, friend, co-worker, community member, etc. if I all of sudden had an epiphany and became an ardent believer.

And why do I think the existence of a god is highly improbable? For some of the very questions, you are asking. Where did god come from? I find it interesting that people cannot accept that the complexity of our universe could come from nothing, yet they will accept the fact that their god - this complex being with the capability of creating complexities out of nothing - must have come from nothing.

But what if he did? This is your question about what god was doing prior to creation. This perfect being who must have been perfectly happy in his perfectly blissful “world”, all of a sudden got this urge to create. Why? Was he lonely? Bored? What imperfection in his existence suddenly made him realize that he needed something more.

And as a perfect, omniscient, all-knowing, all-seeing god, he had to know what he was getting himself into. Why bother? Why make an imperfect world (even though he thought it was good), create beings who he manipulates into sinning and separating themselves from him, just so he can watch as they try to work themselves back into his favour.

It just doesn’t make any sense. But that’s just me.[/quote]

The world would be a pretty boring place if we all believed or liked the same things wouldn’t it? I just can’t understand people who condemn another person’s beliefs based on what other people do and not on the material itself.

[cutter]

[quote=“MiG”]

@cutter

2011 ad =after death for those who do not know.

Do you think they spoke English back then?

A.D. = Anno Domini. The year of our lord. It’s supposed to be the year Jesus was born, not after he died.

Ok course, people didn’t really start using counting years like that until about 800 years after Jesus was around.[/quote]

You do realize the point was we reference our present time with the life of jesus right? thus proving we know that he lived and died as predicted.

[MiG]

@cutter

The bible tells how the jews knew jesus predicted his rising from the dead so they sent soldiers to guard the tomb. 3 days later jesus not only rose from the dead but was seen ( john 20;27-28)

Well that’s a bit weird, right? Matthew and Mark say that a big stone was rolled in front of the tomb, John and Luke say there wasn’t. John also says that Jesus’s body was anointed, while Mark and Luke say that Jesus’s body wasn’t anointed.

And who first saw the new Jesus? Depends on which part of the Bible you’re reading. If you’re reading Corinthians, it was Cephas who first saw Jesus. If you’re reading Matthew, it was the two Marys who first saw Jesus. If yo’re reading Mark, then it was Mary Magdalene. If you’re reading Luke, it was Cleopas who first saw Jesus. If you’re reading Acts, then it was “the disciples.”

So after the resurrection, if you’re reading John, he says that Mary saw Jesus at the tomb. but Matthew says that Mary first saw Jesus on her way home.

See a pattern?

The Bible is folklore. It’s a multi-generational game of “telephone.” With one person telling the story, as best as he could remember it, to the next generation.

It’s riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies. There’s no way one could take the Bible literally, unless they are purposely ignoring these contradictions and inconsistencies. Yet that’s exactly what people do, then claim that they have “read the Bible.” Bullshit. You’ve had the Bible “explained” to you by someone who had a particular view to push on you. That person or group or religion ignored the parts of the Bible that were inconvenient.

So great, you say that the Bible predicts gravity? You mean the THEORY of gravity, right?

What about Dinosaurs?

[MiG]

BTW, cutter, using AD and BC would be considered a THEORY of counting years. I hope you appreciate that irony.

[cutter]

[quote=“MiG”]

@cutter

The bible tells how the jews knew jesus predicted his rising from the dead so they sent soldiers to guard the tomb. 3 days later jesus not only rose from the dead but was seen ( john 20;27-28)

Well that’s a bit weird, right? Matthew and Mark say that a big stone was rolled in front of the tomb, John and Luke say there wasn’t. John also says that Jesus’s body was anointed, while Mark and Luke say that Jesus’s body wasn’t anointed.

And who first saw the new Jesus? Depends on which part of the Bible you’re reading. If you’re reading Corinthians, it was Cephas who first saw Jesus. If you’re reading Matthew, it was the two Marys who first saw Jesus. If yo’re reading Mark, then it was Mary Magdalene. If you’re reading Luke, it was Cleopas who first saw Jesus. If you’re reading Acts, then it was “the disciples.”

So after the resurrection, if you’re reading John, he says that Mary saw Jesus at the tomb. but Matthew says that Mary first saw Jesus on her way home.

See a pattern?

The Bible is folklore. It’s a multi-generational game of “telephone.” With one person telling the story, as best as he could remember it, to the next generation.

It’s riddled with contradictions and inconsistencies. There’s no way one could take the Bible literally, unless they are purposely ignoring these contradictions and inconsistencies. Yet that’s exactly what people do, then claim that they have “read the Bible.” Bullshit. You’ve had the Bible “explained” to you by someone who had a particular view to push on you. That person or group or religion ignored the parts of the Bible that were inconvenient.

So great, you say that the Bible predicts gravity? You mean the THEORY of gravity, right?

What about Dinosaurs?[/quote]

The bible is a collection of books written by different people so we would expect some difference in detail just as we see when the police ask bystanders about an accident. There will be some variances but the object is to find the common details.
Now are you trying to tell me I have not read the bible? I have read it. and yes people do try to explain their version wether you choose to believe them or not is your choice.
Did I say the bible predicted gravity? I do not recall that I do recall saying the bible tells us god made the earth and hung it on nothing.
And what about dinosaurs? I don’t know much about them

[cutter]

@MiG

BTW, cutter, using AD and BC would be considered a THEORY of counting years. I hope you appreciate that irony.

Uh your point is still moot.