Charter 2, Ministry and Trustees 0

My apologies to those who are taking this thread seriously….but some times you have to take a deep breath and yield to temptation – sorry I won’t to it again after this once. (honestly, maybe)

PinchLoaf: no that was not my intent.

From the ‘Prager University’ website:

“Prager University is an online resource for knowledge and clarity.

There are no fees, books, homework assignments, or grueling midterms here - just clear, life changing ideas from world-renowned thinkers.

With short videos on political science, economics, history, religion and life, Prager University offers big ideas on big topics.

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Watch a video, have a shot of espresso and get ready to soak in some knowledge and clarity…and for free! How brain changing is that?

Implement the program K-12 and all we need are more barista’s and someone to supervise the kids while they are sucking up knowledge and changing their brains. Inexpensive because they only have to spend fifteen minutes a day at school…let’s all donate and change the world…or not.

So thanks for the alternate perspective on education and illustrating the clear need for some of the educational conversations that have been taking place in this thread.

By the way: don’t you find your suggestion of illegal control efforts somewhat disconcerting given both events in the past and present?

OK, so you’ve casually dismissed an innovative method of dispensing ideas and challenging the status quo. Guess TED and the wonder boy Sir Ken Robinson is another such wasteland.

How about gallop polls?

reason.com/blog/2012/09/10/polli … hink-teach

Aren’t ‘the people’ just a bother? Union of professionals patiently suffers the ignorance of the masses or maybe just purchase the desired electoral results?

educationnext.org/the-long-reach … rs-unions/

Teacher Unions use of public money to fund partisan politics. Continually caught in act but deny actions.

3523.cupe.ca/3523news/bctf-teach … ize-unseat
metronews.ca/news/halifax/815887 … -partisan/
torontosun.com/2014/01/09/te … -parenting

kittie: I enjoyed reading your well thought out, articulate post.

I agree that it is difficult if not impossible to make changes (under present circumstances). Changing the educational system is doubly difficult. But ‘educational change’ is supposedly taking place all the time involving all stakeholder groups: I’m sure you’re well aware of the educational review and curricular changes that are currently being developed and implemented. (You’re not? neither are many others).

Change invokes fear: the failure of the recommendations from the Sullivan report, which was the comprehensive and intelligent background report to the year 2000 curricular changes, is a fairly recent and memorable example. The changes met fierce opposition from parents, educators, administrators and special interest stakeholder groups. To be fair it met with support from many factions of those same groups (although fewer in number and less vocal). Although there are still remnants of change that stemmed from the report being used…much disappeared for various reasons.

So, currently two opposing parties tend to promise educational change: governments and unions. Governments in general hold many of the legal requirements to institute change whereas unions (composed of individual members) often have an ability to tap the expertise to create and evaluate potential change. My sense from your post is that you believe neither group is doing particularly well.

Remember, the educational system has traditionally served to uphold the status quo and maintain the expectations certain groups within society…and those employed in it have been socialized to that goal for most of their lives (having lived in it for all their education) – so maybe change is incredibly hard from within. (In fact I dare say those within who try to motivate change are often challenged – if not just shuffled off to the side). Top down changes motivated by CEO’s, management etc. in many industries also appear to fail. But if we expect immediate change (despite the hucksters who promise it) we are bound to be disappointed.

As an aside: a teacher who worked in Prince Rupert twenty years ago attended some sessions, in the district she is now employed, with an educational curricular leader that she had seen and worked with in Prince Rupert those twenty years ago. Out of curiosity when she returned home from the session she unpacked a box full of notes and handouts from her Prince Rupert experience. Twenty years later: the educational leader was encouraging teachers to improve their practice and student learning with the same strategies and information that she had presented twenty years previously. Talk about the difficulty of motivating change – the irony, the same guru recently presented a similar series of workshops in Prince Rupert.

Putting aside governments and unions – who else can be entrusted with the responsibility to achieve the change we want – any suggestions? Do we really want to see the educational system change? Or are we so cynical with the current system from government down to classroom that uncritical passivity is the only rational choice?

Thanks again for your post.

A quick response to this morning’s announcement that the Ministry of Education will be appealing the judges ruling:

Despite the political rhetoric (and I think many of the posts from others on this thread have tried to think beyond the rhetoric) the basis of the Ministry’s response is legal and not political. They are appealing based on the assumption that the judge’s ruling interferes with the government’s right to set educational policy.

Hopefully, someone with more legal know how than I will explain from a legal perspective some of the implications of the appeal.

[quote=“chien22”]A quick response to this morning’s announcement that the Ministry of Education will be appealing the judges ruling:

Despite the political rhetoric (and I think many of the posts from others on this thread have tried to think beyond the rhetoric) the basis of the Ministry’s response is legal and not political. They are appealing based on the assumption that the judge’s ruling interferes with the government’s right to set educational policy.

Hopefully, someone with more legal know how than I will explain from a legal perspective some of the implications of the appeal.[/quote]

Wouldn’t you consider this threads opening comment as rhetoric? Hyperbole?

If both sides weren’t so busy trying to claw their way to the moral high-ground–always cloaking their business issues under the guise of caring for students–maybe there could be a rational discussion. When we missed two weeks of school while I was in Grade 11, it didn’t feel like the government or the teachers had the best interests of students in mind.

I read a suggestion in Macleans a while ago that we change to final-offer arbitration, apparently the same model used by some pro-sports leagues. Both sides bring in their “best” offer, and an arbitrator chooses one of the two–and that’s that. This might encourage both sides to make more reasonable offers.

The problem with change is both sides must agree, not only to change but also the type of change. The BCTF thinks any change will take power away from them likewise the government, how many times did the curriculum change under the NDP, ie no grade marks on report cards for the first few grades and a few other changes that I can’t remember, have those changes help produce better educated students? maybe it is time to try something different

I am definitely not going to argue with the last two comments. Both the BCTF and the government need to change, if not their philosophy at least their approach. The relationship is broken and like any bad marriage, kids are usually impacted.

And I am not even going to begin to argue with earlier posters who (combined) believe that the BCTF is a “powerful monopoly” who “wield immense influence over the democratic process” and who “willingly use students as hostages” and “protect bad teachers.” After all, “perception is reality.”

Now despite chien22’s best efforts to shift the discussion to a more philosophical and less political one, the fact still remains that the court made a ruling (twice) that the stripping of the contract in 2002 was not only illegal but that the government in response to the first ruling had bargained in bad faith and did so to provoke a strike.

So where should we go from here? I said in my earlier posts that the government wouldn’t care because they believe that their supporters either agree with what they had done or will continue to vote for them anyway.

The government has now decided to appeal the decision. (And I kind of get that from a political perspective. As minister of education and deputy premier in 2002, Christy Clark’s fingerprints are all over the original legislation. As premier in 2012, her fingerprints are likely all over the decision to provoke a strike for political gain.)

But, and this is more for the Liberal supporters out there, is this the right decision? Do you want taxpayer dollars being spent on another expensive court case that is likely to fail? Do you want a continuation of instability and distrust between the teachers (as evil as you might think they are) and government? Is this what you want from your government who still chant the mantra of a 10 year deal with teachers?

And please don’t forget that the stripping of the contract had nothing to do with teacher salaries and benefits. The biggest losers in this 12 year battle have been kids whose classrooms were made more difficult to manage.

And again, I am not going to argue that the BCTF has been perfect little angels. But right now it is the government who needs to make the first move to steer our educational Titanic away from the iceberg.

When the phrase ‘not a perfect little angel’ is used, it does acknowledge substandard behaviors but does it support corrective actions or is it a passive aggressive attempt to shift responsibility for these behaviors onto others effectively excusing the inappropriateness of said behaviors?

Other such tainted phrases include: “I’m not a racist but…”

Titanic? Better to view this educational hot mess as a trifecta of cortically subilluminated mares. A horse race between our three leading ladies (Gov’t, Board & Teacher Union) who are distinguished graduates of the Rob Ford School of Leadership. All three wanted to be leaders in the worst way and realized their dreams. You go girls.

Collectively we need a cleanup in isles 1, 2 and 3 before students have a chance of success.

‪dabbledon‬‬‬‬‬:
“Collectively we need a cleanup in isles 1, 2 and 3” is an amusing way of stating the problem. It does “acknowledge substandard behaviors but does it support corrective actions or is it a passive aggressive attempt to shift responsibility for these behaviors onto others”.

So who do you see as being the stable hands / clean up crew responsible?

Interesting though that you should suggest that political power seems to be more addictive than even an alcohol induced, crack laced stupor.

DWhite:
A couple of things: 1) the intent is to move the conversation away from the political – hopefully to a more constructive arena.
2) political conversation now isa loop of entrenched rhetoric and broken promises
3) the timelines: 60 days for the government to complete it’s appeal, 30 days for the BCTF to respond, months after that for the panel of judges to respond: best scenario – early fall for a decision – at least another year lost and the rhetoric again ramps up. (And as an accident of serendipity I’m sure – potentially in time for municipal elections – when trustees province wide are elected and the political rhetoric escalates!)….never mind the next round of political rhetoric.
4) one generation of students already disadvantaged; generation two on the way
5) to see change we need to see the problem differently. There appears to be a growing perspective on this thread that change is necessary – a start.

You asked: where do we go from here? Excellent question.

May I suggest giving up talking about whose wrist should be slapped and how hard: the courts will eventually decide…not public opinion…’insistence is futile’ when you have no voice.

Change is hard, but might it be possible to break away from the endless political rhetoric and act more like a society committed to meeting the needs all members educationally and otherwise. (Camelot?) :slight_smile: (Ask not what you can do for your politicians. Rather, ask what your politicians can do for you!).

By the way, I’m firmly convinced the Titanic has already hit the iceberg but the passengers are still naively asking ‘what was that?’.

Before adding my two-bits to this thread, I just want to thank everyone for such a great discussion. It has been a joy to read - even the posts that had me grinding my teeth…

I think that the current Public Education System needs a massive overhaul. Rationale includes:

a) We do not have a clear idea of what we are ‘educating’ children for.

It probably sounds base, but by and large the rationale for public education was to prepare children for the world of work. Concepts such as “Self-improvement” and “Reaching Your Potential” were add-ons in the 80’s and 90’s when it became apparent that what we were doing in Public Education did not meet the needs of the world of work.

Our world has changed. Most of us no longer work in primary or secondary industry. Instead, we work in services. Most of these services, while they might increase our enjoyment (for example, I like back massages and dining out) , the services are non-essential or alternatively could be done by machines.

I think the kids growing up today are very aware that unless they are extremely gifted they aren’t really going to have a satisfying work life. By gifted I mean having one of the following qualities: fabulous interpersonal skills, kinetic preference, artistry, leadership material, or high IQ combined with a strong work ethic.

Artificial intelligence is making huge inroads into the middle class and professional class body of knowledge. Smart algorithms are been developed that are self teaching. They are being used to analyse meta-data, biopsies, x-rays, building design. Inroads in law and accounting have also been made. Even the trades are starting to see work off-shored. We will however always need heavy equipment operators.

I believe that one of the things that has fallen out of this new reality of recognizing that they will not have a satisfying work life is that the younger generation is far less loyal to their employers. After-all why should they be loyal? They know they can, and will be gone in an instant if it improves the employer’s bottom line. Perhaps, because work is no longer so important, this void has been filled with an increase in the importance of having a multitude of personal relationships - both real and imagined? In the past 30 years we have seen FaceBook, Computer Games, and a upsurge in evangelical religion . People are social animals and a sense of belonging is a key emotional motivator.

b) What is the Content?

Most of us don’t need to know a lot of the current curriculum. We will never use it so why is it being taught. When is the last time you used algebra? If we accept the argument that it is being taught as content to teach us to think, then we need to re-look at the content. There are lots of content out there that could be used to teach children how to read, write, analyse, synthesize, do basic arithmetic, and demonstrate good interpersonal skills.

c) The two major decision makers the BCTF and Provincial Government are at logger-heads.

There is so much animosity I don’t think it can be overcome. Both sides have demonized the other. The BCTF no longer looks like a union, due to its foray into politics, it looks more like a political party. It is hard to negotiate with someone who is trying to over-throw you and therefore does not recognize your authority.

d)The mandate of the union is to be self sustaining.

To be self-sustaining, the Union needs to maintain its’ membership. The Union maintains its membership by ensuring that there are teachers who are employed in the Public School System. Given this mandate, it is unlikely the union will ever agree to any measures that will reduce the number of teachers.

e) Who knows best what is needed

The union has over the years been pretty successful in identifying itself as the repository of all knowledge on what is best for children. There are some fine educators who disagree with the Union’s basic position that more teachers will translate into better results.

Over the years, I have come to believe the old saying “It takes a community to educate a child”. Teachers do play a significant part, but students are only in school for a very short portion of the day. Parents, the child’s peer group (real and virtual), casual connections, and media all play a huge role in educating kids. We don’t seem to recognize these influences when we discuss the educational system.

f)The mandate of government is to balance the cost of educational services against the costs of everything else it is expected to provide.

Neo-Conservatives say that we can no longer mortgage our grand-children’s future. Certainly, the economic markets penalize government (by increasing interest rates on their bonds) if the government does not embrace the Neo-Con ideology.

I don’t know if there is a ‘right answer’ here. In any case, with the exception of the left-wing of the NDP, most people are not interested in racking up huge incremental amounts of public debt. (Adrian Dix sounded pretty conservative compared to Dave Barrett)

g) The mandate of the political party in government is to use the tools of government to get re-elected.

The political party will do what it thinks it needs to do to get re-elected. We haven’t exactly gotten Plato’s Guardians running the show down in Victoria!

h) People’s personal interests change.

I the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s everyone was having children. It was generally agreed that we couldn’t spent enough money on education. Now we are a lot older and -our interests have changed to: lower taxes, better medical care, better pensions. See point (e)

Anyways, thanks for the enjoyable discussion. I really don’t think there is going to a quick solution. If the government is guilty of bad faith bargaining, I guess it is just another case of someone deciding “that the end justifies the means”.

[quote=“chien22”]‪

May I suggest giving up talking about whose wrist should be slapped and how hard: the courts will eventually decide…not public opinion…’insistence is futile’ when you have no voice.

Change is hard, but might it be possible to break away from the endless political rhetoric and act more like a society committed to meeting the needs all members educationally and otherwise. (Camelot?) :slight_smile: (Ask not what you can do for your politicians. Rather, ask what your politicians can do for you!).

[/quote]

A good suggestion.

If you really mean what you say then why on earth would you continue to pick at the political rhetoric scab by beginning this smug thread using the juvenile scorecard, “Charter 2, Ministry and Trustees 0” as the title?

[quote=“dabbledon”]
If you really mean what you say then why on earth would you continue to pick at the political rhetoric scab by beginning this smug thread using the juvenile scorecard, “Charter 2, Ministry and Trustees 0” as the title?[/quote]

You do make a good point. It would also be helpful if you don’t characterize members as smug and juvenile. Just a thought.
Great debate!

To respond to both dabbledon and hitest:

“Maybe instead people have lost sight of why to care. As to how to care: talk about education as one of our rights and not as a commodity, not as a political platform…maybe just keeping the conversation going can lead to something more.”

The above from my second post in this thread was a response to DWhite’s post.

I take responsibility for the title of the thread as well as the first post - both highly political. Honestly, DWhite’s post made me begin to rethink my stance. Maybe the political argument isn’t the way to go to defend a right. My thoughts are evolving…

As I am beginning to realize, based on the posts that have appeared, and my reactions to them, there are many ways to see the issues and the political view may not be the most expedient.

To dabbledon, hitest and any others I have confused or alienated, my apologies. But enough about me…can we continue to explore issues of education? They really are important.!

To second hitest’s view: I think the discussions so far have really been great…and I hope others will feel comfortable joining in.

Thanks

There are many perspectives from which to view this issue, and I respect everyone’s right to hold them. Here’s mine. The government has consistently claimed record levels of funding for education, and denied that there has been any systemic “underfunding”. In fact, they, and a friendly mainstream media, have used that platform from which to demonize the teachers for disputing that. Meanwhile, over 200 schools have closed, including three in Prince Rupert, and the number of cuts to specialist such has teacher librarians, special education teachers, etc., far exceed any corresponding decline in enrollment. Now, we discover that the government is appealing the Court’s ruling because to accept it will result in a billion dollar hit to restore the educational balance that existed in 2002. Well, Mr. Fassbender and Ms. Clark can’t have it both ways. If the funding has been record setting, then why will it cost so much to get back what the students had in 2002? And today I received a spam email from Fassbender trying to defend the indefensible. To which I say, how on earth can the Minister suggest that the teachers’ defense of clear limits to class size and educationally sound composition is somehow blocking the government from serving the interest of kids? Unbelievable. I guess they would prefer to spend a few more million on lawyers to argue a “hail Mary” appeal case for another year or so. I’d rather see the money go back into education.

Yes. It is clear that the Government will appeal the decision. In my opinion the Government will lose the appeal as they do not have any precedent setting law in their favour. At some point the appeal process will run its course. I am hopeful that the legal system will eventually compel the Government to restore adequate funding to education.