Adventures in TrumpLand


#21

Who are these mysterious ‘people’ you are talking about? I believe the majority ballot vote was for opposing candidate.

My question is a serious one: unless we attempt to understand how the voting process led to the selection of ‘this clown’ or any of the other ‘clowns’ recently democratically elected world wide and why - we will repeat the same mistake.

Blaming it on ‘the people’ or ‘fake news’ or ‘conspiracies’ or ‘unions’ or ‘outside influences’…… only makes it OK to shift the responsibility away from ourselves.

So who are these people you are talking about hitest?


#22

The angry, the disaffected, the Clinton haters, etc. People wanted an outsider it seems. Trump conned the electorate masterfully. It is going to be a tumultuous four years.


#23

An interesting but not necessarily ‘reality based response’:

From USA Today:

“Clinton’s lead of more than 2 million votes, according to the Cook Political Report, continues to increase, largely due to an influx of absentee and provisional ballots still being counted in California. She has about 64.2 million votes to Trump’s 62.2 million; her margin in California alone is more than 3.7 million.”

So your response, although satisfying from a limited point of view - seems to fly against the facts. “The angry, the disaffected, the Clinton haters, etc. People wanted an outsider it seems.” - or are the facts fake because they might disrupt a comfortable belief?


#24

in the US you have to win the electoral college not the popular vote, Hillary won the popular vote but lost the electoral college, in states where it was close and Trump won it was because lots of democrats stayed home, why they stayed home is up for discussion,


#25

Not at all. Elections are won by the electoral college. Trump won more electoral college votes than Clinton.


#26

Extreme vetting?! There are few details about what extreme vetting is.


#27

Although both hitest and Jabber63 are correct - the electoral college decides the election - that’s not quite the end of the story. In fact the control of the formation of the body of the electoral college and the disparities in it’s selection are at the real core of the election process in the United States.

It’s not as democratic as one might suspect - sort of like the idea of an ‘elected Senate’ here in Canada.

Those Founding Fathers were a crafty bunch:slight_smile:


#28

Yup. The Founding Fathers wanted a fail safe in place. The electors are the final milestone that a candidate must pass. The electors could have voted their conscience and voted against the results of their electoral college state vote. The electors could have over turned Trump’s victory. Hence the hoopla surrounding the official casting of the votes by the electors on December 19th. December 19th ended Clinton’s hopes.


#29

From History Central:

“Hamilton wrote in the Federalist Papers:

It was equally desirable, that the immediate election should be made by men most capable of analyzing the qualities adapted to the station, and acting under circumstances favorable to deliberation, and to a judicious combination of all the reasons and inducements which were proper to govern their choice. A small number of persons, selected by their fellow-citizens from the general mass, will be most likely to possess the information and discernment requisite to such complicated investigations.”

http://www.historycentral.com/elections/Electoralcollgewhy.html

In effect the Founding Fathers were greatly concerned that the general masses might vote for candidates with interests contrary to their own…many were wealthy, landholding, slave owning members of the elite. So as hitest suggests they instituted a mechanism that was somewhat self-protective. In effect, there is no direct democracy in the election of a President in the U.S. The general masses vote for those who will vote for them in an electoral college Presidential decision.

Unless I’m mistaken the selection of the members of the electoral college is open to manipulation (through disenfranchisement, gerrymandering etc.) since the process is decided at the state level. Does anyone remember the recent well financed Republican push for voter suppression?

Sadly, by accepting that it was the ‘alt-right’, ‘Putin’s influence’, or an attempt to return the Presidency into the hands of an American (birther movement), ignores the fact that affluence has great influence in the electoral process.

Unhappily our Federal and Provincial systems are open to similar influences.

PS since royalties have fallen off on the Federalist Papers, Hamilton has been raking it in with his autobiographical musical.


#30

FTFY

Neither candidates got the majority.


#31

the electoral college might not be democratic, which i agree with, but like the US constitution it was for a different kind of country at the time, i’m sure the US’s founding fathers would have thought the brainwaves in power might update their way of voting and the constitution over time and modernize it


#32

I believe that they enabled a process of judicious review and reconceptualizing of the Constitution - it’s called the Supreme Court.

In their wisdom they (Founding Fathers) also created a process by which Judges of the Supreme Court are replaced: it allows for change that is gradual and generally the Court itself has a rather static focus.

Hence the recent refusal to accept the Democratic nomination for a current opening - the Republicans will now propose (and probably accept) a nominee who is more conservative and like minded than the current bench (many nominated by Democrats.

So there may be more liberal interpretations of the Constitution or more conservative interpretations…but the document itself remains The Constitution. It is the interpretation that changes.


#33

The constitution can be amended if there is the political will to do so. However, given the current state of the senate and congress this is unlikely to happen. The constitution is not a static document.


#34

Trump’s conduct as President over the first 7 days is unsettling.


#35

Although I’d like to suggest that you are spreading fake news…or plead that I unavoidably slept through that first year university lecture…neither would be accurate hitest - you are correct.

The constitution can be changed: my apologies.

Interesting the Fouding Fathers did make change extremely difficult . In approximately 230 years only about 27 changes (amendments) have succeeded. (Ten of those related to changes to facilitate the Bill of Rights I believe).
Over that time there have been more than 11 000 attempts to enact change.

It’ll be interesting to see what happens in the near future.


#36

May you live in interesting times.
Ancient Chinese curse

I am deeply concerned about Trump’s unfolding shenanigans. He’s a broken toy.


#37

“The fault, dear hitest, is not in our elected reality tv stars,
But in ourselves, that we are convinced we are powerless underlings.”: Julius Ceasar

‘burp!’: Mack the Turtle


#38

Haha. I’m hopeful that our brothers and sisters in America experience buyer’s remorse.


#39

In the bastion of democracy who got the most votes doesn’t count.
Time for some other nation to pick up the title.


#40

I don’t think we, as Canadians, can shit too much on the American electoral system.

Canada has had situations where leaders were elected with much less of a popular vote than Trump.