Education discussion

I guess I was right in my prediction. I did go back and re-read, and didn’t find the part that I keep asking for.

You stated:

Which I didn’t.

I get it, it’s easy for you to argue with a straw man. But I guess you’re not used to being called out on it.

I literally just explained it in my previous post. I really don’t understand why you don’t see what, to me, seems perfectly obvious. This is the very definition of a debate that is going nowhere.

investor

I do get what you are trying to say. All children in the public system cost x amount of dollars paid for through taxes. You believe that you have the choice of taking your child out of the public system and putting them in the private system. Nobody is arguing with you on that count. But you also believe that families who choose to opt out of the public system are entitled to the amount of money that each kid in the public school costs or at least a portion of that. And that is where the discussion begins.

As I said way up the page, and I think my prediction was pretty good:

and here we still are.

In that same post I asked about somebody opting out of the public health system and using a private one. Do you think that public money should be used to pay for somebody’s knee surgery when they decide to use a private facility that offers a shorter waiting line, more extensive post-operative care, perhaps more skilled doctors and better staff to patient ratio than the rest of us would get. You might say yes; after all, by going to the private clinic you are taking pressure off the public system. I just have a hard time accepting a publicly funded two-tiered health system. And the same applies to a publicly funded two-tiered education system.

You specifically mentioned fewer educational assistants as proof that private schools are leaner as if educational assistants are a frill. They aren’t. And I am pretty sure you know why the private system doesn’t require them to the same extent as the public one. For the same reason that might explain why the public system requires a smaller class size ratio while many private schools brag about their small ratios. Public schools, as someone up the page pointed out, do not have the luxury of hand picking the people who walk through the door.

At the same time you seem to suggest that by opting out of the public system you lose complete access to the public schools. You said about private policing that you still have the ability to phone 911 should the need arise. Well the same does apply to public schools. Should the need arise - the private school burning down or going bankrupt or you losing faith in their system or your child being booted for some reason - the public school is still there for you, no questions asked.

You might be right about this

but I think it is a debate worth having.

investor
I am glad that you have found solace in the fact that in your failure to persuade/prevail in your arguments, Jabber understands. One must take comfort in even the smallest - might I say - even most microscopic of achievements.:slightly_smiling:

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Basi and Virk were charged. They ended up pleading guilty. oh wait the government bought them off for $6M before they or any of the important government members needed to testify. That non-scandal?

I don’t want to get into a numbers game here because numbers are confusing at the best of times. But your implication is that funding is all well and good.

I just want to point out that the increase doesn’t quite cover the cost of inflation.

As to the decrease in enrolment, that too isn’t easy to figure into a simple formula. All I know is that at one point there were well over 200 teachers in Prince Rupert; now there are about 150. At the same time teacher salary increases have not been above inflation. So, I don’t know what all of those numbers imply. .

Another factor that makes your numbers difficult to compartmentalize is the increase in awareness for programs that have in the past been ignored. When I became a learning assistant teacher in the late '90s there were very few designated students. Not to be alarming because we did start with a small number but my guess now is that designated students have quadrupled. (Somebody in the system may be able to help me out.)

The point being: If we are now trying to do a better job helping students that in the past didn’t have those supports and funding isn’t increasing beyond inflation, then one of two things happen.
a. designated kids don’t get the supports we know they need
or
b. funds are funneled from “regular” programs

To repeat, I am not arguing about what is an appropriate number for funding. I am just saying that throwing out $3.6B to $4.7B is not particularly helpful. .

One can’t have a debate with you, investor. You are unwilling to consider a view point that varies from the tired rhetoric emanating from the Fraser Institute.

Hey everybody, I’m feeling really sick, but I don’t want to go that “public” hospital for free. I want to go to a more expensive “private” hospital. But since I won’t be using the public system, would you mind paying for my private health care instead? Even a subsidy would be nice… say 50% ?

Oh man, the RCMP aren’t very effective at keeping the unwashed masses out of my gated community. Therefore, I will refuse to use them from now on, and hire a private police force instead. Can the taxpayer please pick up the tab? Even just a bit would help. Let’s say the taxpayer subsidize my private police force 50% or so? And since I won’t be using the RCMP anymore, I’ll actually be saving the taxpayer some money.

I know the city pays for an excellent Fire Department, but I think I can get better fire protection from a private contractor. Is it ok if the city gives me back some of that money I pay in taxes to subsidize my private fire protection? Just a little bit would be great. Let’s say 50%. And since I won’t be using City fire services any more, I’m actually saving the city money!

I’m going to build my own road along the highway. Since I won’t be using the highway anymore, what do you say the taxpayer pick up 50% of the tab of my private road? Only seems fair. I’ll actually be saving the taxpayer some money, because I won’t be using the public system any more.

The reason this debate is going around in a circle, @investor, is that you are arguing with a straw man, not with anything that I’ve said.

Your kids won’t lose their right to a free public education just because they go to a private school. No more than you’d lose the right to use the RCMP despite having a private security guard. And you wouldn’t lose the right to use a public hospital just because you use a private one. You keep insisting that I said the exact opposite of this. I didn’t. That’s why this is going around in a circle.

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2 posts were split to a new topic: Government scandals

Private schools have had government funding for nearly 40 years. It was put into place by Bill Bennett and the Social Credit. During that time we have 3 different parties govern the province including the NDP. During their tenure as the governing party of this province they could have changed the legislation to discontinue partially funding independent and private schools but they did not. I personally don’t care that private schools are partially funded. Those who do pay a significant amount of money to have their children in these schools, including government workers.

The fact that the government funds private education would not irk me as much if the government properly funded public schools. I can appreciate your point of view. We will agree to disagree. My opposition to using tax dollars to fund private education stands.

define properly funded public schools? more money for teachers pay and benefits? more schools for less students?

A properly funded system would have smaller class sizes, with better classroom composition. The term composition refers to the make up of the classroom, that is, the number of regular learners, and the number of students with special needs. For example a classroom of 24 regular learners is a vastly different learning environment compared to a classroom of 24 students where 5 of the students are learning disabled. Learning disabled children need more support to learn.
Private schools know all about classroom composition which is why they keep their class sizes small, and they can screen who they admit. They can and do turn away kids with learning challenges.
Yes. Teachers deserve a raise. Compared to other provinces BC public school teachers are paid less.

Ever been to a Math 12 class with at least 45 students crammed in one room? One teacher, no teacher assistants.

I agree the system could use more money. But where and how much money should be allocated ? You look at the lower mainland where the schools are over crowded. The infrastructure was not properly planned for the increase in population. The bottom line where is the money going to come from. As for teacher salaries you have to take in to consideration the income tax rate from each province. I’m curious as to why some retired teachers are on call.

http://www.bcpsea.bc.ca/bc-teachers/collective-agreements/teacher-salary-grids.aspx

I suspect that they enjoy teaching a lot, so they come in and teach when teachers are ill.

Prince Rupert has always had a shortage of qualified substitute teachers.

Over the last several years the district has hired quite a lot of new teachers to be part of their pool of substitute teachers. The problem of course is that the district will hire teachers for positions from the pool of substitutes. There are days when it is hard for the district to get enough teachers on call.

The last time that situation existed - as if a MATH 12 class of 45 students in a BC school ever existed - it was in a time before social promotion existed, before students were moved along to the next elementary grade even though they hadn’t mastered the material or skills needed. It was a time before parents were promised that their children would get the support needed to catch them up, even though the school was not funded adequately to provide that extra support personnel or time from the teacher. If there was this hypothetical class, it was in a time when student who had low academic skills or learning disabilities that made school tough, could easily drop out and find work that was sufficient to support a family and lead an enriching and productive life. The students who made it into Math 12 back then were some of the absolute top academic young minds in the community, not just kids who had put in 12 years already. Those times don’t exist anymore, those classes don’t exist any more. So what is your point?

[quote=“hitest, post:92, topic:17034”]
Over the last several years the district has hired quite a lot of new teachers to be part of their pool of substitute teachers. The problem of course is that the district will hire teachers for positions from the pool of substitutes. There are days when it is hard for the district to get enough teachers on call.
[/quote] I no longer teach in PR, but it is probably the same there as here in PG: The district can save money by hiring teachers to temporary (LD) contracts rather than to continuing contracts with all of the inherent benefits of full time employment. Whenever possible, districts post empty positions as LD contracts, preventing teachers from reaching that continuing status. The low pay afforded to part time teachers, combined with the poor prospects of ever becoming a full time teacher, cause many people to look for jobs in other locations where the prospects are better. Sadly, it also causes young teachers to leave the profession for other jobs that can provide stable employment.

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